LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

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j keenan
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by j keenan » 08 Dec 2010 19:08

The figures are for the whole of the lssah
The German Whermacht lost
57 officers,1042 nco and men killed,
181 officers,3571 nco and men wounded
13 oficers,372 nco and men missing.
Luftwaffe
10 officers,42 nco killed
36 officers and 104 nco missing
source vol 1 lssah
Nice work Ste and Harrow Thanks
Best Jamie

Ste
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Ste » 08 Dec 2010 22:49

Nachname: Kinzer
Vorname: Günter
Dienstgrad: Sturmmann
Geburtsdatum: 28.06.1920
Geburtsort: Ratibor
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 15.04.1941
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Korissos

That's "my" Kinzer Harro,however, if the datas match with "your" Kinser,I think that Kinser is the right name;VB is not free from errors and if your name came from a veteran,or an original document I trust more in that than in VB.

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xristar
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 09 Dec 2010 00:02

j keenan wrote:The figures are for the whole of the lssah
Then one of these three things is true:
a)The battle of Kastoria lake on 15 April 1941 was not fought by LSSAH
b)The Germans killed 30 Greeks for each German, and didn't really feel the fight
c)The LSSAH casualty list is terribly incomplete
j keenan wrote:The German Whermacht lost
57 officers,1042 nco and men killed,
181 officers,3571 nco and men wounded
13 oficers,372 nco and men missing.
Luftwaffe
10 officers,42 nco killed
36 officers and 104 nco missing
source vol 1 lssah
Nice work Ste and Harrow Thanks
Best Jamie
Are SS casualties included in Wehrmacht casualties?

I understand it's improbable that there is a reliable record of German casualties in the Balkan campaign. :(

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Harro
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Harro » 09 Dec 2010 09:30

Ste wrote:That's "my" Kinzer Harro,however, if the datas match with "your" Kinser,I think that Kinser is the right name;VB is not free from errors and if your name came from a veteran,or an original document I trust more in that than in VB.
Well, I've seen typos in the official Verlustliste too so don't put your money there too quickly :)
xristar wrote:a)The battle of Kastoria lake on 15 April 1941 was not fought by LSSAH
b)The Germans killed 30 Greeks for each German, and didn't really feel the fight
c)The LSSAH casualty list is terribly incomplete
or...
d) LSSAH inflicted serious losses to the Greek defenders.

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xristar
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 09 Dec 2010 09:50

Harro wrote:
xristar wrote:a)The battle of Kastoria lake on 15 April 1941 was not fought by LSSAH
b)The Germans killed 30 Greeks for each German, and didn't really feel the fight
c)The LSSAH casualty list is terribly incomplete
or...
d) LSSAH inflicted serious losses to the Greek defenders.
(d) is my (b). You mean that for 10 German casualties there were 300 or so Greek. The LSSAH did not have the necessary superiority in means to achieve such a feat. Is there anywhere where the German casulaties in the campaign are broken down, by day or by unit?

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Harro
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Harro » 09 Dec 2010 14:06

Yahsu "xristar" :)
xristar wrote:You mean that for 10 German casualties there were 300 or so Greek.
Where did you get the "300 or so"? Earlier you wrote...
xristar wrote:The Greek casualties are unclear, but the I/23 battalion alone had 83 killed and wounded at 14.45, and 160 killed and wounded by the end of the battle.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by SchnellMeyer » 09 Dec 2010 14:48

Franz Witt , the younger brother of Fritz Witt was killed during the battle to take Klidi Pass . LAH losses in this battle were put at 37 killed and 95 wounded , hope this is of help.

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xristar
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 09 Dec 2010 15:29

Harro wrote:Yahsu "xristar" :)
xristar wrote:You mean that for 10 German casualties there were 300 or so Greek.
Where did you get the "300 or so"? Earlier you wrote...
xristar wrote:The Greek casualties are unclear, but the I/23 battalion alone had 83 killed and wounded at 14.45, and 160 killed and wounded by the end of the battle.
Three Greek battalion-level formations fought: the I/23, the III/22 and the XIII recon. group. Plus the artillery. After the initial contacts, the German attacks were directed to the Greek right, where the XIII group, and later the III/22 fought. If the I/23 (fighting on the less pressured left) took 160 casualties, its only logical that the other units took similar, if not heavier, casualties.
I don't have a copy of the respective volume of the Greek official history, however IIRC the Greek history mentions "several hundred casualties", so my figure of 300 is only a conservative estimate. The Greek history mentions also significant German casualties, including the loss of armoured vehicles.

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Harro
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Harro » 09 Dec 2010 16:22

Do your sources say anything about the casualties of the mentioned Stuka attack?

BTW, it seems to me most Greek defenders were killed or wounded during the chaotic retreat after the Germans broke through.

BTW2, please do not believe such accounts about "high German losses" at face-value. I have several official Dutch works about the invasion of the Netherlands which also mention numerous destroyed armoured vehicles and many killed Germans. On the other hand there are books from the German perspective which exaggerate the Dutch strength and losses. I also found the books of "Panzer"meyer (Grenadiers) and Lehmann (Die Leibstandarte) to be unreliable for that matter (with Meyer being close to fiction).

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by bigger_chief » 09 Dec 2010 17:42

The Leibstandarte volume I Rudolf Lehmann

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Leibstandarte-Rud ... 0486102318

Seems very pricey.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by j keenan » 09 Dec 2010 17:56

j keenan wrote:The figures are for the whole of the lssah
The German Whermacht lost
57 officers,1042 nco and men killed,
181 officers,3571 nco and men wounded
13 oficers,372 nco and men missing.
Luftwaffe
10 officers,42 nco killed
36 officers and 104 nco missing
source vol 1 lssah
Nice work Ste and Harrow Thanks
Best Jamie
These were the figures used by Hitler when he spoke at the Reichstag in Berlin.
Best Jamie

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xristar
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 09 Dec 2010 18:16

Harro wrote:Do your sources say anything about the casualties of the mentioned Stuka attack?

BTW, it seems to me most Greek defenders were killed or wounded during the chaotic retreat after the Germans broke through.

BTW2, please do not believe such accounts about "high German losses" at face-value. I have several official Dutch works about the invasion of the Netherlands which also mention numerous destroyed armoured vehicles and many killed Germans. On the other hand there are books from the German perspective which exaggerate the Dutch strength and losses. I also found the books of "Panzer"meyer (Grenadiers) and Lehmann (Die Leibstandarte) to be unreliable for that matter (with Meyer being close to fiction).
a)As I said, I don't have that particular volume of the Greek official history, so I'm writing by memory. The 15 April was mostly a rainy-cloudy day, but in the afternoon, at about 17.00 (IIRC) the skies cleared up a bit, and about 40 Stukas appeared. The Germans made their ground attack almost simultaneously with the Stuka air-strike. The Stukas destroyed about 6 field-guns (again IIRC) and caused much demoralisation. However, as I said earlier, the I/23 had suffered 83 killed & wounded at 15.00, before the Stukas stroke. I'd say that at least 100-200 Greek casualties occured before the collapse.
b)The Greeks expended a lot of rifle and machinegun ammunition; the commander of I/23 writes that his companies were running short on ammo. The Greek artillery also fired a lot.
I know, after all I said it earlier already, that its possible that the Germans, despite being the attackers, suffered fewer casualties. However, in this case, the Germans didn't have such a superiority in means (air-force, artillery, tanks) to explain an almost without casualties victory. The Greeks mention repelling at least two distinct German attacks. The Germans clearly mention the presence of the III./LSSAH, which also made the final breakthrough, although apparently, without casualties at all!

From my experience I know that histories tend to be biased. Sometimes books are almost pure propaganda -with a whole lot of BS in them. Official histories try to be reasonably objective, and use whatever material is accessible from the "other side".There's no official German history of WWII, and the Balkan campaign is only a marginal episode in the huge war that was WWII. The Greek official history uses the "Der Deutsche Griechenland Feldzug" by Alex Buchner (published in 1957), which it treats as a semi-official German narrative. The book (which interestingly has been translated in greek, but apparently not in english!) however is brief, and treats the West-Macedonia campaign with little detail. I hoped that there would be some more detailed narrative and at least a good list of the German casualties. (Buchner provides some casualty details only for the combat around Metaxas line; after that he becomes vague)

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by j keenan » 09 Dec 2010 18:47

Strm Ahrens Horst 17.10.21-12.4.41
Strm Born Herbert 13.4.20-12.4.41, 1/lssah
Sldt Doll Helmut 29.10.19-10.4.41
Strm Fuhlert Horst 17.11.18-12.4.41, 4/lssah
Strm Füllert Gerhard 11.11.21-11.4.41
Rttf Heinzmann Karl 21.6.19-12.4.41, 5/lssah
Strm Hilmer Harald 28.1.22-12.4.41
Strm Kinzer Gunter 28.6.20-15.4.41, 3/aa1
Rttf Koops Ferdinand 14.11.20-10.4.41, 5/lssah first name Ede?
Sldt Krischik Egon 25.9.20-10.4.41, 5/lssah
Strm Krüger Erich 21.6.21-15.4.41
Strm Maurer Johann 16.4.19-12.4.41, 1/lssah
Strm Plociennick Paul 2.3.21-18.4.41
Strm Ropeter Wilfried 11.8.22-12.4.41, 1/lssah
Rttf Schmieja Georg 16.5.19-16.4.41
Rttf Siebert Karl 30.1.19-18.4.41

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Pena V » 09 Dec 2010 19:42

Because Xristar's timeline is 6.-29. April I think that the most obvious name is missing. Sbf Wilhelm Mohnke (CO of II/LSSAH) was WIA 6. April. All in all losses were suprisingly low above Zugführer level. In addition to Mohnke I'm aware of only Hsf Rudolf Schröder (CO of 1./AA).

Regards,

Pena V

Ste
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Ste » 09 Dec 2010 21:06

In addiction to the casualties:

Oscha Georg Koch 4.4.1914-10.4.1941
Uscha Siegfried Richter gef. 12.4.1941

Both from 3. Kompanie

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