German tank strength in Ardennes?

[shuniuhutu]

Hugh M. Cole said "1,800 panzers in the Ardennes battle some 250 were Tigers and the balance was divided equally between the Mark IV and the Panther. "
German had 250 tigers in Ardennes battle? Is that true? Anyone know the true number?

[Eberhardt]

250 Tigers
My quickest source to dig out, Sledgehammers book, states it was no more than 86 Tiger II's at the start of the Ardennes Offensive, Kampfgruppe Peiper: 45 Tiger II's and s.Pz.Abt.506 with 41 Tiger II's.
I can also check out some other Tiger books but I think these figures are quite accurate.

[Michael Kenny]

Cole is not at his best when using German numbers. If I remember correctly he also claims there were more German tanks in the Bulge than on the whole Russian Front because he made a simple error when checking the totals -he used the German 'in service totals' from the East against the total of all tanks in the West!

[ptimms]

The 1800 figure is very similar to Jentz's total of 1695 but for the whole Western Front (and of these he has 1216 operational). These figures include Stugs. On 15th December Jentz has for the whole front.

Stugs 410
PzIV 391
PzV 336
PzVI 79

So no 250 Tigers. In the Ardennes he has 501st with Peiper having 45 Tiger II on 3/12/44 and 506th having 42 Tiger II on 10/12/44 with 6 replacements in transit.

[shuniuhutu]

Cole is not at his best when using German numbers. If I remember correctly he also claims there were more German tanks in the Bulge than on the whole Russian Front because he made a simple error when checking the totals -he used the German 'in service totals' from the East against the total of all tanks in the West!

Thank you Michael. And do you know the distribution of German tanks in Western theater and Eastern theater after D-day?? And what about the number of Tiger I in the Ardennes battle? Thanks again.

[shuniuhutu]

250 Tigers
My quickest source to dig out, Sledgehammers book, states it was no more than 86 Tiger II's at the start of the Ardennes Offensive, Kampfgruppe Peiper: 45 Tiger II's and s.Pz.Abt.506 with 41 Tiger II's.
I can also check out some other Tiger books but I think these figures are quite accurate.

Thank you for your reply,Eberhardt. What about the number of Tiger I?

[shuniuhutu]

The 1800 figure is very similar to Jentz's total of 1695 but for the whole Western Front (and of these he has 1216 operational). These figures include Stugs. On 15th December Jentz has for the whole front.

Stugs 410
PzIV 391
PzV 336
PzVI 79

So no 250 Tigers. In the Ardennes he has 501st with Peiper having 45 Tiger II on 3/12/44 and 506th having 42 Tiger II on 10/12/44 with 6 replacements in transit.

Thank you ptimms. Very useful data.

[Eberhardt]

250 Tigers
My quickest source to dig out, Sledgehammers book, states it was no more than 86 Tiger II's at the start of the Ardennes Offensive, Kampfgruppe Peiper: 45 Tiger II's and s.Pz.Abt.506 with 41 Tiger II's.
I can also check out some other Tiger books but I think these figures are quite accurate.

Thank you for your reply,Eberhardt. What about the number of Tiger I?

Tiger I did not take part in the Ardennes Offensive as far as i know at this moment.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Did s.Pz. Abt. 506 not have a company of Tiger I in the Ardennes ? They were the s.Pz.Kp. Hummel of Arnhem fame which became, 4./506.

[Michael Kenny]

Sledgehammers here:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a415948.pdf

[Tom Peters]

If I am not mistaken s.Pz.Abt.301, attached to 9th Pz div. had Tiger I.

Mad Dog

[ptimms]

Mad Dog,

I think you're right this unit is in the Ardennes but I found this on feldgrau.

There were only 2 units with Tiger Is in the area of the Ardennes but only one of them saw action in the battles.

On 18 December 1944 schwere Panzerkompanie "Hummel" was assigned to schwere Panzer-Abteilung 506 as it's 4.Kompanie. At this point it had 8 Tiger Is while the balance of 506 had 47 Tiger IIs. These Tiger Is did fight in the battles in the Ardennes and on 17 January 1945 1 of the Tiger Is that had been damaged in battle was destroyed by the crew since it could not be recovered prior to the withdrawal. "Hummel" stayed with 506 until 16 February 1945 when they left with 5 Tiger Is to operate as an independent unit the remainder of the war.

schwere Panzer-Abteilung (Tiger/Fkl) 301 with 29 Tiger Is received word on 15 December 1944 that they were to be attached to the 9. Panzer-Division. They assembled in Niederaussem to entrain for transport which was scheduled to begin on 20 December 1944. On 22 December 1944 members of the unit Stab went into the Eifel to establish contact with the HQ of the 9. PD, which was scheduled to relieve the 2. PD fighting near Celles. However, before the rail transport of the Tigers could happen, all of the rail lines had been destroyed so on 25 December 1944 301 was released from it's attachment to the 9.PD. The Tigers were unloaded and 301 moved to Nörvenich where it became an Army Group reserve of the LXXXI. Armee-Korps. During the first half of 1945 301 carried out repairs and maintenance to their equipment as well as personnel reorganization. Hence they never took action in the Ardennes actions. In fact they did not enter action untill 20 January 1945 at Waldfeucht aganist the British in the Rhineland operations. At this point they had 27 Tiger Is. It appears the reduction of 2 was the result of 2 Tiger Is being sent to Maintenance in early January 1945. When they went in combat in the second half of January 1945 they had 52 BIVs on their roster. However it appears that the demo tanks were never used again although there were orders for them to be used to destroy bridges over the Ruhr River on 10 April 1945. This order was recinded so the demo tanks were sent back to the supply unit.

[yantaylor]

The 1800 figure is very similar to Jentz's total of 1695 but for the whole Western Front (and of these he has 1216 operational). These figures include Stugs. On 15th December Jentz has for the whole front.

Stugs 410
PzIV 391
PzV 336
PzVI 79

So no 250 Tigers. In the Ardennes he has 501st with Peiper having 45 Tiger II on 3/12/44 and 506th having 42 Tiger II on 10/12/44 with 6 replacements in transit.

I know that this an old thread but I have come across some other figures.
According to the book "Encyclopaedia of German Tanks in WW22 [Chamberlain, Doyle & Jentz], that these AFVs were available;
137 Pz IV/70
450 Panthers
259 Panzer IVs

Plus from another source there was only 17 Jagdpanthers.

The amount of other AFVs available including StuG IIIs and other assault guns are unknown to me, but I don't think any figures are out there.

Regards
Yan.

[Tanker Mike]

Yan,

You are using a dated source. The Encylopedia was published many years ago. Panzer Tracts would be an excellent source.

Mike

[yantaylor]

Thanks Mike.