Old picture and KStN 1114 - 1Oct37

[GregSingh]

This picture - Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-121-0010-20 – was taken on the 1st of September 1939 near Bagnitz (now Bagienica 53.445 N, 17.795 E). It shows German 3rd Panzer Division.
According to book ‘Panzer Divisions Blitzkrieg Years 1939-40’ – ‘tactical symbol on the left mudguard denotes a motorised infantry platoon’.
Because 3PzD Schützenkompanie was organised according to KStN 1114 from 1-Oct-37 which apparently has not survived, that picture is really worth analysing.
Infantryman on the back seat of the staff car looks like Entfernungsmessman to me.You would think he would be rather in s.MG Halb-Zug of Schützenkompanie, not in the Schützenzug.
But according to Dr. Leo Niehorster, there was no staff car in s.MG Halb-Zug.
Also what do you think a soldier next to Entfernungsmessman is holding? Could he be a Krankenträger?
Anyway lots of things to look at. Might help to restore details of this early war KStN.....
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... ruppen.jpg

[history1]

This picture - Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-121-0010-20 – was taken on the 1st of September 1939 near Bagnitz (now Bagienica 53.445 N, 17.795 E). [...]

Your source please for this claim is really appreciated.
Regards,
Roman

[GregSingh]

My research team came to this conclusion based on freely available sources.
But this post is not about help with identifying the photograph?

[Alanmccoubrey]

My research team came to this conclusion based on freely available sources.
But this post is not about help with identifying the photograph?

Why be so evasive ? All the man asked is where you found the location of this pic as the BA doesn't give a location for it.

I agree with you that the soldier has a rangefinder. As there is no Panzer Division insignia on any of the vehicles why can't this be a pic of an MG Battailon advancing into Poland, many, if not all, of the MG Btln had the Krupp Boxer as their main vehicle.

[history1]

My research team came to this conclusion based on freely available sources.

Based on what?
On a car with the license plate "WM - 182369", tactical emblems of a 4th Infantry Company resp. unarmored mechanised Infantry Company?
Please point me to the hint in the image where it´s sure that this troops are part of the German 3rd Panzer Division, can´t see their insignia on the cars.
I´m regulary in Poland and this sandy area may well lay behind Luzino or somewhere else. Looks totaly identical.
Regarding the, most likely, captured border sign it´s somewhere near the german/polish border.

Well, you may provide your sources to back up your conclusion. Would be interesting.

[history1]

I forgot to mention, it´s not a Krankentrage (not Krankenträger) in the image, IMHO. Another question is what´s on the breast of the same soldier. I´m not famliar with measuring troops but is looks hard plated, nothing connect it with medics or soldiers who are responsible to transfer wounded soldiers to the next casualty station.

[GregSingh]

I am a new member of this forum, I don’t think I breached any rules, but out of the sudden I am under a fire from all over the place Not a nice welcome, but anyway.
In Pruszcz-Bagienica concentration area there were 3rd Panzer Div. and 23 Inf Div.
Motorised MG Battailon was a possibility but was ruled out because:
1. There was no motorised infantry platoon or company in MG Battailon. MG and mot inf platoons would have different markings.
2. No records could be found about any independent Motorised MG Battailon neither in 3PzD nor 23ID.
In regards to the photograph, available footage was compared with some photos taken in the mentioned area only a couple of years ago by member of this forum. If you have some private, more recent photos and want to share, I am happy to see them.
I included some of the research below.

[Alanmccoubrey]

You were not under fire, you choose your words poorly when you replied to the first question that is all. If you had posted this last instead then you would have answered the question fully and not felt offended at all.

[Christoph Awender]

Hello GregSingh,

Why do you think it is the Schützenzug and not the 4.(schwerer) Zug??

/Christoph

[Gary Kennedy]

Well in the absence of the early war KStN I'm always intrigued as to what can be divined from other sources.

I think the two passengers in the rear seat of the first vehicle put me off thinking this is a Rifle Pl. The fella on the left of shot is carrying a ranging device that wouldn't be required by a Rifle Pl, the one on the right I don't know.

The truck following looks to be carrying six men to me, while the one behind that appears to have seven? After that, I can't tell. That could just about fit for either a Rifle Squad over two vehicles or an MG Squad in one. The last vehicle visible at the top of the frame, can anyone judge if that's a light car or a Kfz70? If it's a car, and if you assume the subunit is travelling complete and in formation, that would rule out a Rifle Pl as that would have six trucks. There's not much solid in that though.

Must admit, my instinct is an MG Pl, and if that is a car bringing up the rear it looks more like an MG Bn subunit than a Rifle Coy version. Does beg the question of where are the motorcycles in either case! I've no knowledge of Polish terrain or interest in tac signs/symbols so won't enter the debate on who was or wasn't at that location on a certain date.

I will say that's the first time I've seen MGs on AA type mounts in vehicles of this type. Was that a common set up for Inf and/or MG units of the period?

Gary

[history1]

You were not under fire, you choose your words poorly when you replied to the first question that is all. If you had posted this last instead then you would have answered the question fully and not felt offended at all.

Can only agree with Alans explanation.

[history1]

[...] The truck following looks to be carrying six men to me, while the one behind that appears to have seven? [...] Gary

Correct, Gary.

[Christoph Awender]

Hello,

Well for me it is the "schwere Zug" which would perfectly fit.
See on my site:
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11141nov41.htm

/Christoph

PS: I think I see the problem now. You think that the symbol is for a platoon! Symbols on vehicles like this were for a company. The thick left line on company symbols was for maps.

[GregSingh]

Thanks for your input guys.
So it is a MG platoon of motorised infantry company based on markings and presence of Distance Measurer.
Perhaps the other man is a Richtkreisunteroffiziere or just a melder?
I noticed the photo available in Wikimedia is a low quality - 539 × 800 pixels, file size: 82 KB
Original at the Bundesarchiv is 2640x3921 pixels, file size: 915.3 kB. I might ask one of my mates to get a large one.
Perhaps we will see details of ranks and equipment.

[history1]

If you can send me your email- address I´ll transmit a download of the photo from the Bundesarchiv.