Why the Waffen-SS

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
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Qvist
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Qvist » 18 Jul 2012 10:41

Golden Diamonds wrote:We have a fascination with military organization whether they support an evil regime or not. We are in love with the Roman legions, French Legion, French armies of Napoleon, the Sparta army, Confederate Army, etc., despite the fact that they were supporting evil regimes. It is always on going love/hate relationship that is part of our human nature. In Star Trek, the Space Seed episode, Mr. Spock was shock was by Captain Kirk, Commader Scott, and the other officers's admiration for Khan Noonien Singh. Captian Kirk stated to Mr. Spock that we can admire him and still be against him. Mr. Spock's reply was "illogical" and Captain Kirk said "totally" and then put a guard on Khan's living quarter. Today, we still seem to have an admiration for military organizations even in science fiction works. We have people who admire Klingons, Romunians, Ferengi, and Cardassians in the Star Trek TV series. On Star Trek Deep Space Nine, there are people who admire the Ferengi person named Quark even though he would take the shirt off your back if he could make a profit and we have people who admire Constable Odo even though he was a security officer for the predatory Carassian Empire.
Well, perhaps an important point here is that this isn't science fiction, and that it's not a very good idea if people approach this part of history with an expectation of finding some modern equivalent to the Spartans or the Tenth Legion. The mindset you describe is exactly the problem, and in my opinion is not a valid way of approaching history. If you've actually fought against them, then I guess it's your privilege to regard them with this kind of respect, if you want to. If not, you had better stick to comic books or movies for that sort of thing, because it has nothing to do with understanding history.

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sidelock123
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by sidelock123 » 19 Jul 2012 12:59

The "Facts" have a habit of being twisted by the "victors" in general conflicts. Truth and facts are rareley considered after any final victory. I imagine that if the Second World War had been won by Hitler with the fall of the Soviet Union, then very few people today would have heard about the 'Final solution of the Jewish question'.. Thats on example of what happens to facts.

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Harro
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Harro » 19 Jul 2012 13:16

sidelock123 wrote:The "Facts" have a habit of being twisted by the "victors" in general conflicts. Truth and facts are rareley considered after any final victory. I imagine that if the Second World War had been won by Hitler with the fall of the Soviet Union, then very few people today would have heard about the 'Final solution of the Jewish question'.. Thats on example of what happens to facts.
Your point being?

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sunbury2
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by sunbury2 » 19 Jul 2012 13:33

BillHermann wrote:Indeed, the fascination is there and I find the organization as a whole interesting.

I am talking about the sugar coating
, twisting of facts and the ignorance. They have been turned into something that they are not.
I am fascinated to by the mental gymnastics some perform. The Waffen SS had a history of butchering prisoners dating from the Norfolks in May 1940 throughout the entire war. 7% of all Canadian deaths in Normandy were as prisoners of the Waffen SS. The Americans experienced them during the Battle of the Bulge, butchering prisoners yet again.

The black Hugo Boss uniforms, have a homo-erotic effect on so many, they look and feel manly. LMAO (Yes the designer Hugo Boss got his big fashion break designing the SS Uniforms)

The Waffen SS was part of the SS, not separate as some try to believe. On the Eastern Front they waged a war of extermination following Nazi Doctrine for the creation of Lebensraum. That is one historical subject that so many are to afraid to explore, opening that box, and you see the SS for what they were.

http://164.11.131.30/genocide/ss%5Fnure ... ctment.htm
The Schutzstaffeln (SS)

The Nuremberg Indictment

In the early weeks of the trial, there appeared in a newspaper circulated in Nurnberg an account of a correspondent's visit to a camp in which SS prisoners of war were confined. The thing which particularly struck the correspondent was the one question asked by the SS prisoners: Why are we charged as war criminals? What have we done except our normal duty?

The evidence which follows will answer that question. It will show that just as the Nazi Party was the core of the conspiracy, so the SS was the very essence of Nazism. For the SS was the elite group of the Party, composed of the most thorough-going ad-herents of the Nazi cause, pledged to blind devotion to Nazi principles, and prepared to carry them out without any question and at any cost. It was a group in which every ordinary value was so subverted that today its members can ask, what is there unlawful about the things we have done?

In the evidence of the conspirators' program for aggressive war, for concentration camps, for the extermination of the Jews, for enslavement of foreign labor and illegal use of prisoners of war and for the deportation and Germanization of inhabitants of conquered territories, in all this evidence the name of the SS runs like a thread. Again and again that organization and its com-ponents are referred to. It performed a responsible role in each of these criminal activities, because it was and indeed had to be a criminal organization.
Officers of the Waffen SS could only marry with the express approval of Himmler. The Waffen SS was not ever a "separate" force, it was the military arm of Nazism and it served the Nazi Party, not Germany

To it, the war crimes of Nazism can be laid at it's feet. I heard a British tanker veteran of Normandy describing them as "vermin to be destroyed". He was probably a bit harsh but accurate.

Edit to learn more on the SS and Nazi War Crimes, the link is a serious study site.

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Marcus
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Marcus » 19 Jul 2012 15:18

A post by Annelie containing little but personal remarks was removed.

/Marcus

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 20 Jul 2012 02:20

Ambiguous answers with little direction have me at a loss. As the victors do obviously have a s say in how the rules are set but how different is that from the Nazi Germany in 1942 at the hight of the war when they were setting the rules in their occupied territories.

Why to the people that feel that there is a great unjust towards the Waffen-SS and their story but the same passion and concern do not play out with the ill treatment and twisted propaganda from Nazi Germany.

Much of the fiction that has been created seems to be a feel good boost towards and organization that has many passionate interests but can not stomach the bad part of the story. Trying to dilute the facts only takes away from the real story.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Dutto1 » 21 Jul 2012 23:29

I find it hard to fathom that after almost 70 years since the end of WW2 there is stll heated debate about the Waffen SS and its role in WW2.

Anyone who attempts to study the organisation should realise with all of the good material available that the Waffen SS was deeply involved in the crimes of the Third Reich.I am not saying that every Waffen SS Officer and man were all war criminals who were only in the Waffen SS for political and prestige reasons clearly this is not the case,however the Waffen SS was an integral part of the Nazi madness that took place 1933-45.

Claims by HIAG and Waffen SS sympathisers after the War that the Waffen SS was made up of men who had no poltical or idealogical motavation is rather feeble.During The Battle of Berlin SS-Obersturmfuhrer Gerhard Babick a former member of the LSSAH who had served in Jochen Peiper's 'Blowtorch Battalion ' in SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 2 was put in command of the Reichstag during the final days of the battle.An eyewitness described him as "raving and ranting" playing the big man and even having men under his command shot out of hand.Is this the actions of a rational soldier who should have realised the game was up ? No it was the action of a man who was holding Nazi ideals to the end.

There are three types of people who study the Waffen SS.The first group want to beleive the HIAG version that the Waffen SS was an much maligned organisation that had been wronged and were soldiers like any other and performed miracales at the front.

The second group want to claim the Waffen SS were made up of men who were war criminals to the last man and every member was a fanatical Nazi.

The third group and most important one is people who see the Waffen SS for what it really was by taking an objective view at the organisation and not falling into the trap of the other two groups of seeing it through rose tinted glasses and picking out only the bits they want to.

A notable fact is a lot of Waffen SS apologists seem to ignore is that the Waffen SS was declared an criminal organisation at Nuremberg.

Regards

Ron

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 25 Sep 2012 11:24

Indeed in so many ways but sadly we have folks, many on the fringes here that believe strongly that the trials were unfair.

Sad indeed

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by j keenan » 25 Sep 2012 19:33

In my research of the LAH
In the early days a lot of the men came from the Algemine-SS which belies the Elite status Uk/Us authors seem to give them. Who did the 4 years service and went back to the Algemine-SS.Others who joined as civis after there 4 years service went on to join the police and SD.So they moved about quite easily between the different services.
Also most joined the party at the same time or before joing the SS so I would think they were quite politically motived and believed in the cause.
@ tonyh
Eicke, who by all accounts was a pretty unlikeable fellow.
He was well liked by his men !! Earning the title Papa Eicke
My question is why did the conspirators put off killing Hitler in the early days when they were winning ? They all new what was going on in the camps and at the front.So is the Wehrmacht not as guilty as the SS ? So why any intrest in the Third Reich at all ?

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 25 Sep 2012 19:45

That wasn't my question, I completely understand why WW 2 is interesting and I also understand the interest in the third reich. I wouldn't be here if I did not understand that.

My question relates to the fact that out of the list of branches the Waffen-SS has more passion, generates more anger by supporters , more spin has been created, more fiction has become fact. They have become the rock stars to amateur historians.

Your post as well is a little confusing as I am not sure what you were trying to get at.

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WEISWEILER
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by WEISWEILER » 25 Sep 2012 19:55

why is it that so many debate something, of which so many know nothing?

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Harro
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Harro » 25 Sep 2012 20:02

WEISWEILER wrote:why is it that so many debate something, of which so many know nothing?
Why is it that those who have a positive view on the Waffen-SS so often accuse those who have a negative view of not knowing enough about the matter and vice versa?

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by j keenan » 25 Sep 2012 20:08

Sorry
just saying I don't think there Elite
Most of the early ones were in the party http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8&t=120613
They were posted between all branchs of the SS so they new what was going on !
tonyh for all his reading seems confused
I personely dont think they are treated like rock stars,the Luftwaffe or Afrika Korps the Submariners
Fallschirmjager people are quite happy to say they like them.They all faught for the same Third Reich so i don't know why the SS cause more anger than the rest ?Who knows maybe its the Lightning bolts and Deaths heads on black :D

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 25 Sep 2012 20:10

That's is an interesting comment, are we going to debate how much we know of the subject now. Are we going to set ground rules that if you are not a so called expert you can't be part of the discussion?

Interesting.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Dutto1 » 25 Sep 2012 20:11

BillHermann wrote:Indeed in so many ways but sadly we have folks, many on the fringes here that believe strongly that the trials were unfair.

Sad indeed
The Nuremberg Trials is a complex issue.I have studied it in detail over the last year or so.There is some point of the trials which were questionable for example should Jodl have been excecuted ? My opinion is probably not but there was a lot of trading regarding the main defendants in the trial.

In case of the Waffen SS, criminal organisation is the only result possible because of the warcrimes that were commited by it's units during WW2.

Jamie makes some good points, after the war veterans of the Waffen SS and HIAG claimed they were only simple soldier's and had nothing to do with the concentration camps, and were not involved in warcrimes.This has been disproved since WW2.

How many people or historians mention that Michael Wittmann was an member of the Allgemeine SS before he joined the Waffen SS, and he was a National Socialist ?

BTW Bill i am an "Amatuer Historian ".

Regards,

Ron
Last edited by Dutto1 on 25 Sep 2012 21:10, edited 1 time in total.

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