Why the Waffen-SS

[BillHermann]

I never said one or the other you took my comment out of context.

Frankly that is not the issue

[Harro]

How many people or historians mention thhat Michael Wittmann was an member of the Allgemeine SS before he joined the Waffen SS, and he was a National Socialist ?

Not many, just like most Waffen-SS "groupies" deny the fact that Peiper was a party member and considered himself to be a nazi. They ignore such facts because it does not fit their "knights in shining armour" bubble.

[j keenan]

In case of the Waffen SS, criminal organisation is the only result possible because of the warcrimes that were commited by it's units during WW2.
Yes Ron
and not to forget the ones commited before the war
Best Jamie

[David Thompson]

An assortment of off-topic and frivolous posts was removed by this moderator - DT.

[BillHermann]

Here is a question to add to the "why the Waffen-SS" would they be as interesting if they were not so infamous.

The core to this discussion is the fact that they did do bad things and that is one of the key reasons why there is interest, what is funny though is trying to lessen the crimes or make excuses only turns them into something they were not.

[waldzee]

Here is a question to add to the "why the Waffen-SS" would they be as interesting if they were not so infamous.

The core to this discussion is the fact that they did do bad things and that is one of the key reasons why there is interest, what is funny though is trying to lessen the crimes or make excuses only turns them into something they were not.

There is this desire to remember the valiant long retreat, the /lost cause, bill, & Forget the negative side.
A lot of the Swartzedeutsch Hiwis were pressured to join the Concentration Camp service of the SS, because they assured you of a ticket out of South Russia for your family.
Where the Heer HIWIS were expected to die like tigers, - since their kinfolk were/last to be moved/....

[tonyh]

@ tonyh
Eicke, who by all accounts was a pretty unlikeable fellow.
He was well liked by his men !! Earning the title Papa Eicke
My question is why did the conspirators put off killing Hitler in the early days when they were winning ? They all new what was going on in the camps and at the front.So is the Wehrmacht not as guilty as the SS ? So why any intrest in the Third Reich at all ?

I'm well aware of Eicke's nickname and the fact that he was liked by some of his men. But, HE himself seemed to be a rather unlikeable person. Eicke and the fledgling 3rd W-SS div were spawned from the camps and the camp guard system, the SS-Totenkopfverbände and as such their makeup was of a very different base than other Waffen SS Divisions at outbreak of war. The 3rd SS was seen by the other so-called classic W-SS Divs as the sort of bastard child of the Waffen-SS organisation as it were and they themselves felt that they were generally neglected in the early years. They were always "last on the list". Eicke fought hard for his men, in that he made sure that they received equipment that they needed etc and this would have earned him a certain respect among his men. Sometimes, a no-nonsense, hard-assed attitude can earn the respect of those who think you can get the job done.

By the time of Eicke's death in 1943, the 3rd Waffen SS Div. had long ceased to resemble the "last on the list" formation that it was in 1939. It's men had faced over two years of war and many had been replaced, as losses were incurred. By the time of Zitadelle, this difference was even more pronounced.

As to your "question" about the conspirators, you would first have to ask yourself what you think they actually "knew". The vast majority of the conspirator party knew next to nothing and relied on rumour, hearsay and second/tertiary information to form their opinion on the outrages of the nazi regime. Even so, it wasn't these outrages that motivated their cause, despite the current portrayal. It was the downfall of the country and concerns about where Hitler was leading it that was the reason for their treason, not what some of them had heard about the camps etc. The conspirators were not some sort of glorious, righteous, democratic entity, who wanted to overthrow Hitler and the nazis out of some "higher" political ideal based on their opposition to their government's excesses. They were Nationalist-Conservatives, who actually shared many political traits with the National Socialists and some were for continuing the war with Russia.

tonyh for all his reading seems confused

I can assure you there is no "confusion".

Perhaps more study is required on your behalf.

[Marcus]

Everyone, drop the personal remarks.

/Marcus

[j keenan]

Eicke k.i.a. 26.2.43

[tonyh]

Of course.

Slip of the keyboard. The post has been rectified.

[WorldwarBill]

In case of the Waffen SS, criminal organisation is the only result possible because of the warcrimes that were commited by it's units during WW2.
Yes Ron
and not to forget the ones commited before the war
Best Jamie

I do not dispute that the Waffen SS committed war crimes. However, if you are going to criminalize an entire organization because of the acts of some of its members, then you also have to criminalize the Wehrmacht, because evidence collected during the war makes it quite clear that the Wehrmacht also committed war crimes. But if you do that, then you must also include both the NKVD units of the Red Army, and the Red Army itself. And, since war crimes were committed by every single army in the war, including the US and UK, you must decided at what point the actions of some become the actions of all so that you may criminalize the whole organization. Is the US Army criminal because some of its members committed war crimes and shot German POWs? What the Red Army, who slaughtered untold thousands of Germans, both military and civilian. Or the French Army, who were particularly brutal in Germany and Austria?

My point is not to defend the Waffen-SS but rather to caution against declaring whole groups 'criminal', because no army was entirely innocent, and the Red Army could match the Waffen SS atrocity for atrocity.

[Dutto1]

In case of the Waffen SS, criminal organisation is the only result possible because of the warcrimes that were commited by it's units during WW2.
Yes Ron
and not to forget the ones commited before the war
Best Jamie

I do not dispute that the Waffen SS committed war crimes. However, if you are going to criminalize an entire organization because of the acts of some of its members, then you also have to criminalize the Wehrmacht, because evidence collected during the war makes it quite clear that the Wehrmacht also committed war crimes. But if you do that, then you must also include both the NKVD units of the Red Army, and the Red Army itself. And, since war crimes were committed by every single army in the war, including the US and UK, you must decided at what point the actions of some become the actions of all so that you may criminalize the whole organization. Is the US Army criminal because some of its members committed war crimes and shot German POWs? What the Red Army, who slaughtered untold thousands of Germans, both military and civilian. Or the French Army, who were particularly brutal in Germany and Austria?

My point is not to defend the Waffen-SS but rather to caution against declaring whole groups 'criminal', because no army was entirely innocent, and the Red Army could match the Waffen SS atrocity for atrocity.

Hi Bill,

We are not declaring the whole of the Waffen SS as criminal on AHF.The Waffen SS was declared a criminal organisation at the Nuremberg Trials.

Regards,

Ron

[tonyh]

That had more to do with simple convenience than actual guilt though.

The fact remains, whether people like it or not, that the vast majority of men in the Waffen SS committed no war crimes of any nature and the simple lumping in of everyone concerned is disingenuous, no matter who has claimed what.

Bill is quite correct in his assertions above.

The men of the Waffen SS weren't given a fair assessment, because they were on the losing side. However, if we were to uphold the dubious standards of the IMT, then there are plenty of organisations throughout history that can be simply blacklisted as a "criminal" organisation.

At the end of the day, it matters not a jot what was said at Nuremberg with regards to the Waffen SS and their "criminality". People studying the history of the period should be able to distinguish the men with actual criminal cases against them with the ordinary Joes who where fighting to stay alive, like all other soldiers at the front.

[Harro]

However, if you are going to criminalize an entire organization because of the acts of some of its members

Nope, the Waffen-SS is criminalized because it was a criminal organization, no matter how many members did not participate in its crimes. The Waffen-SS as a structure was rotten from the top...

Once again I cite from one of the letters I recieved from SS-Sturmbannführer Rolf Diercks (DKiG), who passed away last February: he wrote that after the war it wasn't to difficult for him to open his eyes for the crimes of the system, including the Waffen-SS. And he believed that the the young soldiers who joined during the war - who believed in fighting the Bolsheviks - should have realized after the war that - as soldiers under the Sigrunen - "they were part of the organization that was the motor behind the racial madness and the imperialistic "Germano-mania" of the Third Reich."

[Rob - wssob2]

The fact remains, whether people like it or not, that the vast majority of men in the Waffen SS committed no war crimes of any nature and the simple lumping in of everyone concerned is disingenuous, no matter who has claimed what.

As Harro pointed out, the institution of the Waffen SS was rotten from the top down.

It was institutionally related to both the HSSPF, RSHA branches of the SS - and by "institutionally related" I mean the transfer of personnel, co-participation in war crimes and genocide, etc.

It materially benefited from the SS-WHA branch - the department that ran the concentration camps

It helped staff the concentration camps

It's medical branch engaged in gruesome experiments agains helpless prisoners.

Several of its units enaged in the wholesale slaughter of Eastern European Jews in 1941-43.

And this is all in addition to the specifc war crimes (Malmedy, Oradour, etc.) discussed multiple times on AHF.

The men of the Waffen SS weren't given a fair assessment,

If it makes you feel better, plenty of SS men implicated in massive, multiple war crimes got away scott-free - Mohnke and Gustav Lombard immediately spring to mind.

People studying the history of the period should be able to distinguish the men with actual criminal cases against them with the ordinary Joes who where fighting to stay alive, like all other soldiers at the front.

tonyh, I know you've particpated in this forum for years and yet I am amazed that despite all the evidence posted here that you still claim to believe such a myth. The SS troops who machine gunned civilians at Ascq in April 1944 or at Pinsk in August 1944 weren't "fighting to stay alive" - they were killing defenseless civilians - in the case of the former due to an operational policy and in the case of the latter due to a specific ideological policy. It's not a question of opinion, it's a matter of fact - and to quote Waffen-SS war criminal Kurt Meyer, the facts are burdensome enough.