Why the Waffen-SS

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2461

Post by BillHermann » 28 Jan 2017, 07:16

j keenan wrote:
DarthChewie wrote:Fascination with the Waffen-SS is a related phenomenon to Holocaust denial. The Waffen-SS was at the vanguard of an effort to change history by killing 10 million Jews and starving or enslaving 30 millions Slavs. The SS at the front lines were pursuing this goal no less than the ones at the death factories, since the point of the war was to make it possible for Hitler to kill these racial groups.

Portrayals of the SS that focus on their uniforms, insignia, and battle tactics deliberately omit this most crucial fact about the group. The effect is to make it seem like the Waffen-SS were comparable to elite units in other countries. And if the Waffen-SS were just like any other units, then WWII was just like any other war. The Holocaust disappears from view.
You have a bizarre take on history !!
There is actually allot of validity in this opinion and there is factual evidence in the last 50 years or so to link the blind fascination of the Waffen-SS to denial. If there wasn't we would not be seeing continous effort to separate the Waffen -SS from the Nazis, SS and Holocaust. It is also historical fact that they were very much an instrument of the Nazis and were very much the SS. Their is a continued movement of alternative facts to suggest that they had nothing to do with the camps as an organization as well and there are verified facts to the contrary. Having an objective historical interest in the Waffen-SS is one thing but subscribing to much of the rewritten history that puts them above the rest and disconnects them from the holocaust is is fiction. And of course there will be comments made about individuals "not all were" bad or details about the heroic combat performances but these of course are just distractions from what the organization was.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2462

Post by Ironmachine » 28 Jan 2017, 09:26

BillHermann wrote:There is actually allot of validity in this opinion and there is factual evidence in the last 50 years or so to link the blind fascination of the Waffen-SS to denial. If there wasn't we would not be seeing continous effort to separate the Waffen -SS from the Nazis, SS and Holocaust.
If there is a effort to separate the Waffen-SS from the Nazis, SS and Holocaust, then there is at least an implicit acknowledgment that there was an Holocaust!


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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2463

Post by j keenan » 28 Jan 2017, 11:37

BillHermann wrote:
j keenan wrote:
DarthChewie wrote:Fascination with the Waffen-SS is a related phenomenon to Holocaust denial. The Waffen-SS was at the vanguard of an effort to change history by killing 10 million Jews and starving or enslaving 30 millions Slavs. The SS at the front lines were pursuing this goal no less than the ones at the death factories, since the point of the war was to make it possible for Hitler to kill these racial groups.

Portrayals of the SS that focus on their uniforms, insignia, and battle tactics deliberately omit this most crucial fact about the group. The effect is to make it seem like the Waffen-SS were comparable to elite units in other countries. And if the Waffen-SS were just like any other units, then WWII was just like any other war. The Holocaust disappears from view.
You have a bizarre take on history !!
There is actually allot of validity in this opinion and there is factual evidence in the last 50 years or so to link the blind fascination of the Waffen-SS to denial. If there wasn't we would not be seeing continous effort to separate the Waffen -SS from the Nazis, SS and Holocaust. It is also historical fact that they were very much an instrument of the Nazis and were very much the SS. Their is a continued movement of alternative facts to suggest that they had nothing to do with the camps as an organization as well and there are verified facts to the contrary. Having an objective historical interest in the Waffen-SS is one thing but subscribing to much of the rewritten history that puts them above the rest and disconnects them from the holocaust is is fiction. And of course there will be comments made about individuals "not all were" bad or details about the heroic combat performances but these of course are just distractions from what the organization was.
Your views are as bad as the fan boys that's the funny thing about the pages n pages written are the myths that both sides keep perpetuating about the SS,Waffen-SS,Holocaust,THE WEHRMACHT as a whole were carrying out Hitler's policies as a whole organisation which the Waffen-SS were a part of.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2464

Post by DarthChewie » 29 Jan 2017, 06:29

Ironmachine wrote:
BillHermann wrote:There is actually allot of validity in this opinion and there is factual evidence in the last 50 years or so to link the blind fascination of the Waffen-SS to denial. If there wasn't we would not be seeing continous effort to separate the Waffen -SS from the Nazis, SS and Holocaust.
If there is a effort to separate the Waffen-SS from the Nazis, SS and Holocaust, then there is at least an implicit acknowledgment that there was an Holocaust!
Holocaust deniers also include those who seek to deny the responsibility of particular groups of perpetrators. Claiming that the Allgemeine-SS and not the Waffen-SS were the ones responsible for the Holocaust is just such a denial. And in fact, this kind of minimization is much more politically powerful than outright denial.

In the postwar era, one of the major barriers to white supremacist movements was the revelation of the tremendous human suffering that such movements had caused in the Holocaust. Separating the Waffen-SS from the Holocaust was the first step in an attempt to rehabilitate white supremacy by concealing that human suffering. If the most important Nazi soldiers were not perpetrators of the Holocaust, then we can convince ourselves that the Holocaust was not an integral part of Nazism itself but instead just the excess of a few. Thus, white supremacy is rehabilitated as a pure commitment of "ordinary soldiers" who were "just defending their country." The first people to use this tactic were the HIAG and other veterans groups who celebrated Waffen-SS regiments as a covert way to advocate for white supremacy.

Undoubtedly, there is an irony in the spectacle of white supremacists, who presumably support the destruction of Jews, minimizing the role of the Waffen-SS in the Holocaust. Shouldn't they be celebrating it? But this is an irony brought about by a postwar political situation that determined anti-Semitism to be disreputable or even illegal. Celebration of the Waffen-SS as "elite units" is a way to cherish white supremacy while avoiding the condemnation or censorship that would follow from outright expressions of neo-Nazism. Even those who are Waffen-SS hobbyists and might not belong to far-right parties still enjoy the material for the feelings of racial fantasy it inspires.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2465

Post by Ironmachine » 29 Jan 2017, 10:40

DarthChewie wrote:Holocaust deniers also include those who seek to deny the responsibility of particular groups of perpetrators. Claiming that the Allgemeine-SS and not the Waffen-SS were the ones responsible for the Holocaust is just such a denial. And in fact, this kind of minimization is much more politically powerful than outright denial.
In the postwar era, one of the major barriers to white supremacist movements was the revelation of the tremendous human suffering that such movements had caused in the Holocaust. Separating the Waffen-SS from the Holocaust was the first step in an attempt to rehabilitate white supremacy by concealing that human suffering. If the most important Nazi soldiers were not perpetrators of the Holocaust, then we can convince ourselves that the Holocaust was not an integral part of Nazism itself but instead just the excess of a few. Thus, white supremacy is rehabilitated as a pure commitment of "ordinary soldiers" who were "just defending their country." The first people to use this tactic were the HIAG and other veterans groups who celebrated Waffen-SS regiments as a covert way to advocate for white supremacy.
Undoubtedly, there is an irony in the spectacle of white supremacists, who presumably support the destruction of Jews, minimizing the role of the Waffen-SS in the Holocaust. Shouldn't they be celebrating it? But this is an irony brought about by a postwar political situation that determined anti-Semitism to be disreputable or even illegal. Celebration of the Waffen-SS as "elite units" is a way to cherish white supremacy while avoiding the condemnation or censorship that would follow from outright expressions of neo-Nazism. Even those who are Waffen-SS hobbyists and might not belong to far-right parties still enjoy the material for the feelings of racial fantasy it inspires.
At the end of the day, if someone seeks to deny the responsibility of a particular group of perpetrators, he/she is at least tacitly conceding there was an Holocaust. Whether this kind of minimization is much more politically powerful than outright denial or not is a matter of opinion; I don't think so, but you may disagree. If the most important Nazi soldiers (that were not the most important German soldiers) were not the perpetrators of the Holocaust, but still the Allgemeine-SS, the Nazy Party, and the Nazi government were, only a fool can convince himself/herself that the Holocaust was not an integral part of Nazism itself. In other words, only those that are already convinced would be convinced by this argument, so as a tactic to rehabilitate white supremacy it is totally stupid; not that white supremacist are examples of high intelligence, anyway.
On the other hand, I very much doubt that "even those who are Waffen-SS hobbyists and might not belong to far-right parties still enjoy the material for the feelings of racial fantasy it inspires", unless you are not meaning white supremacy but some kind of pan-race camaraderie. After all, I'm sure there are many so-called Waffen-SS hobbyists that are not "arians", and many of them can at least pretend that Waffen-SS was open to everybody: slavs, latins, asians,... And of course, people are well capable of ignoring anything that troubles their glossy image of a certain matter, so it is just possible for someone to be a Waffen-SS hobbyist without any racial undertone, just like it is possible for someone to be a Roman legions hobbyist without having a second thought about slavery or Christian slaughtering. Time tends to make things so forgivable...
And that's all I'm going to say about a matter I'm not particularly interested in.
Regards.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2466

Post by Harro » 29 Jan 2017, 11:13

For the former members of the Waffen-SS the search for post-war rehabilitation was mainly a financial issue. Unlike Wehrmacht soldiers, pensions had been denied to members of the Waffen-SS as a result of the organisation having been declared criminal at the Nuremberg trials. Books like "Grenadiere" by Kurt "Panzer"Meyer and ‘Soldaten wie anderen auch’ (soldiers like any other) by Paul "Papa" Hausser are to be seen in that light. Both desperately sought to rehabilitate the Waffen-SS and hoped to convince post-war Germany that the Waffen-SS had been an honourable band of frontline fighters and categorically denied that it had been part in war crimes.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2467

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Jan 2017, 19:57

The W-SS, as a fighting force, only came into prominence in the last year of the war

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2468

Post by offizier1916 » 31 Jan 2017, 20:50

sry

ProxyCentauri
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2469

Post by ProxyCentauri » 18 Feb 2017, 16:17

Cult Icon wrote:The W-SS, as a fighting force, only came into prominence in the last year of the war
That is pure BS.

SS-Vervugungstruppen, and later Waffen-SS was indeed looked upon with deep scepticism by Whermacht officers and men alike
before the outbreak of the war and in the beginning of the war. They were referred to as 'Arsch-Arsch' and 'Asphalt Soldiers'.
Their espirit le Corps and fighting elan soon showed to be second to none, although they in the beginning of the war
clearly lacked education and henceforth took unnecessary high losses.

In some cases they even generated scandalous incidents, such as 'Nord' on the Salla-front in Finland in the summer of 1941,
where large elements of the division fleed head over heels and made the local German field-commander enraged
and talking of 'Fanenfluct'
With increased experience and better education things rapidly improved, and allready in the Balkan field campaign
with the following invation of Greece, the respect from their army collegues rose exponentially.
After the recapture of Charkov in March '43 their reputation as formidable soldiers was firmly anchored.
No army divison, including elements such as 'GrossDeutschland' and other elite units would ever complain
knowing they had one of the SS-Divisions on their flank

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2470

Post by Cult Icon » 19 Feb 2017, 03:10

In context to the whole war, the W-SS had only 3 divisions equipped as strong PzD and 1 PzG division (5.SS) in 1943. It was only until spring of 1944 did 9 and 10 SS come on-line. In summer of 1944, 12.SS appeared. Himmler then took over the replacement army and after Normandy, the W-SS divisions refitted in the rear while the army ones (except for Lehr and others) were at the front. These W-SS were used as the strongest formations for the Ardennes and Hungary.

They were few among the many army panzer divisions.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2471

Post by j keenan » 19 Feb 2017, 05:15

Cult Icon wrote:In context to the whole war, the W-SS had only 3 divisions equipped as strong PzD and 1 PzG division (5.SS) in 1943. It was only until spring of 1944 did 9 and 10 SS come on-line. In summer of 1944, 12.SS appeared. Himmler then took over the replacement army and after Normandy, the W-SS divisions refitted in the rear while the army ones (except for Lehr and others) were at the front. These W-SS were used as the strongest formations for the Ardennes and Hungary.

They were few among the many army panzer divisions.
This statement makes know sense !

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2472

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Feb 2017, 16:32

Hi Proxycentauri,

You are perpetuating the myth, not the reality.

What the ordinary Army divisions wanted coming to their support were not W-SS units, per se, but mechanized and armoured formations.

Most W-SS formations were undistinguished or poor. Nobody would be reassured by the presence of the 39th Baron von Munchausen SS-Freiwillige Division on their flank!

The best ones were also (1) largely Reich-raised and (2) mechanized or armoured. They were also a minority of the total W-SS order of battle.

The senior W-SS divisions were mechanized from the start because of political preferment, not because they had any obvious military distinction. They also received armour later for the same reason. There were no arguably good W-SS divisions that were not mechanized or armoured.

By using Army tactics and equipment and exploiting Army breakthroughs the senior W-SS divisions gained combat experience and became competent and sometimes good formations, though it should be noted that the quality of a formation varies for better or worse over time. The Hitler Jugend of late 1944 was not the Hitler Jugend of mid 1944.

However Waffen-SS formations displayed little or no military originality and had no specialist expertise not inherited from the Army that merited them being organizationally separate from the Army. There was no military rationale for the Waffen-SS being an independent arm of service, only a political one. They had no unique military skills like paratroops or marine infantry to justify it. Militarily the W-SS was essentially a clone of the German Army.

There was no magical quality of "Waffen-SS-edness" that made a formation good.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2473

Post by nagantino » 28 Feb 2017, 21:27

As some have said .....it's a good question. Let me try from the perspective of a 64 year old living in Ireland. Firstly, They Looked So Bloody Good. The Wehrmacht looked superb, but the SS seemed to be look so much more, More. Secondly they seemed to eminate an arrogance that defined arrogance. Officers, especially, seemed to find within themselves a sense of Special Calling. Thirdly, the Wehrmacht were a superb fighting machine but he SS seem defined by being better than the Wehrmacht. That's not the case but it's the perception. Fourthly, everyone likes the bad guy and they certainly wanted that image. Fifthly, popular entertainment media LOVE the SS.

I've tried to understand the SS but still haven't yet. I posted a question on this forum "The Wehrmacht and the SS" and no one has answered yet. Look at it. If Germans older than me argue about their status (SS) then what chance have I, living in Ireland to understand.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2474

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Mar 2017, 11:50

Hi O' Nitnagan,

1) Yes, superficial appearance is clearly part of their attraction. But appearance is not the same as substance.

2) Certainly SS officers "seemed to find within themselves a sense of Special Calling". The great majority were NSDAP members. Their special calling was Nazism. If their special calling had been soldiering, they would have joined or stayed in the Army, which was already arguably the most professional in the world.

3) Yes, "That's not the case but the perception". (See 1 above).

4) Yes, image.

5) Yes, sadly the popular media do love the the SS. That is why there seem to be divisional histories of almost every W-SS division in English, however dismal they were in reality. You could get a book published on "Waffen-SS Dress Cufflinks, 1941-43" more easily than on some entire countries in the war.

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2475

Post by ProxyCentauri » 02 Mar 2017, 16:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Proxycentauri,

You are perpetuating the myth, not the reality.

What the ordinary Army divisions wanted coming to their support were not W-SS units, per se, but mechanized and armoured formations.

Most W-SS formations were undistinguished or poor. Nobody would be reassured by the presence of the 39th Baron von Munchausen SS-Freiwillige Division on their flank!

The best ones were also (1) largely Reich-raised and (2) mechanized or armoured. They were also a minority of the total W-SS order of battle.

The senior W-SS divisions were mechanized from the start because of political preferment, not because they had any obvious military distinction. They also received armour later for the same reason. There were no arguably good W-SS divisions that were not mechanized or armoured.

By using Army tactics and equipment and exploiting Army breakthroughs the senior W-SS divisions gained combat experience and became competent and sometimes good formations, though it should be noted that the quality of a formation varies for better or worse over time. The Hitler Jugend of late 1944 was not the Hitler Jugend of mid 1944.

However Waffen-SS formations displayed little or no military originality and had no specialist expertise not inherited from the Army that merited them being organizationally separate from the Army. There was no military rationale for the Waffen-SS being an independent arm of service, only a political one. They had no unique military skills like paratroops or marine infantry to justify it. Militarily the W-SS was essentially a clone of the German Army.

There was no magical quality of "Waffen-SS-edness" that made a formation good.

Cheers,

Sid.
Hi Sid,
you are for the most part absolutely right- I did express myself clumsy and distiction between prioritized units like the nrs 1.2 and 3 SS-Pz
and mediocre and in some instances scandalously 'bad' units must be done.
However, I wouldnt necessarily put an equality sign between only mechanized units as elite units.
Example: After some initially weak performances on the Salla front in mid-Finland, SS-Gebirgsdivision 'Nord'
established themselves as a tough and battle-hardened unit that was a firm anchor on the southern part of the arctic front.
As the name implies, they were a Mountain/GebirgsDivision, without heavy armor. I believe there is concensus among most
military historians that 'Nord' performed exemplary in the field. As a curiosity it can also be mentioned that
the division was among the very few SS-units(maybe the only one of divisional size I am not sure)
that never got atrocities connected with them.
Also other units of similar character like the 1.Estonian Waffen-SS division performed excellent
defending their home country of Estonia. This division was not mechanized either, although on this front
both army and waffen-SS units of armored character operated in their vicinity.

I think we can agree upon that the quality of waffen-SS units diverge a lot, and that I should have been more precise about
which units I was thinking of.

It was by no means my intentions to generate anything of myth regarding the Waffen-SS units. On the contrary, thats what forums like these
are for, to bring to light and clarify history

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