Why the Waffen-SS
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
6 SS-Totenkopfstandarte part of Nord committed an atrocity for which Voss was hanged for after the war.
Sid is never right about anything regarding the Waffen-SS/SS he has is own agenda of perpetuating myth and lies about said subject which he does across many forums.
Sid is never right about anything regarding the Waffen-SS/SS he has is own agenda of perpetuating myth and lies about said subject which he does across many forums.
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
IMHO you are repeating well known statements about various SS formations.
ProxyCentauri wrote: It was by no means my intentions to generate anything of myth regarding the Waffen-SS units. On the contrary, thats what forums like these
are for, to bring to light and clarify history
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
[quote="Cult Icon"]IMHO you are repeating well known statements about various SS formations.
That I might have done, if so I am sorry for that.
But it was part of another statement I got critizised for which I tried to clarify.
That I might have done, if so I am sorry for that.
But it was part of another statement I got critizised for which I tried to clarify.
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Hi ProxCentauri,
Regarding the "exemplary" conduct of the Nord.
Unlike most German divisions, it only ever operated on Reich, Reich-allied or virtually unpopulated territory. Its opportunities for brutalizing any civilians who were not Finns or Germans were very severely limited.
It is good that it has an "exemplary" record, but in the circumstances this is unsurprising. However, it is worth pointing out that only three late creation divisions (28th, 37th and 38th) did not have officers who had served in the camps. The Nord was not amongst them.
A similar claim was made for the Charlemagne Division. However, it only operated on Reich territory, so it would have had little opportunity to brutalize anyone who was not a Reich citizen. Furthermore, this ignores the fact that its main predecessors, the LVF and Milice, had rather less savoury records against partisans in the USSR and maquis in France in previous years.
When looking at W-SS divisions it is necessary to look at the wider context of the institution as a whole. Nord and Charlemagne both had little opportunity to commit war crimes. However, there were members of both who had suspect pasts before reaching the divisions in question.
Finally, lack of war crimes charges is the minimum level of behaviour one has reason to expect. It is not a badge of exceptional merit.
Cheers,
Sid.
Regarding the "exemplary" conduct of the Nord.
Unlike most German divisions, it only ever operated on Reich, Reich-allied or virtually unpopulated territory. Its opportunities for brutalizing any civilians who were not Finns or Germans were very severely limited.
It is good that it has an "exemplary" record, but in the circumstances this is unsurprising. However, it is worth pointing out that only three late creation divisions (28th, 37th and 38th) did not have officers who had served in the camps. The Nord was not amongst them.
A similar claim was made for the Charlemagne Division. However, it only operated on Reich territory, so it would have had little opportunity to brutalize anyone who was not a Reich citizen. Furthermore, this ignores the fact that its main predecessors, the LVF and Milice, had rather less savoury records against partisans in the USSR and maquis in France in previous years.
When looking at W-SS divisions it is necessary to look at the wider context of the institution as a whole. Nord and Charlemagne both had little opportunity to commit war crimes. However, there were members of both who had suspect pasts before reaching the divisions in question.
Finally, lack of war crimes charges is the minimum level of behaviour one has reason to expect. It is not a badge of exceptional merit.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Why the Waffen-SS?
First of all a relative of mine was a member. It's just interesting to search about a relative who fought in World War II, and I have to admit, it makes it more special that he was in the Waffen-SS. Beside that, I was already interested in the Waffen-SS. Their uniform/camouflage looked so good. It still does! Specially compared to most uniforms of any other military group at that time.
"Funny" how I first thought (when I was in my early teenage years) that all Waffen-SS men were, let's put it this way, evil, compared to the Wehrmacht. Now that I'm older I have an way different look on them. (don't get me wrong, I'm not 'infatuated').
First of all a relative of mine was a member. It's just interesting to search about a relative who fought in World War II, and I have to admit, it makes it more special that he was in the Waffen-SS. Beside that, I was already interested in the Waffen-SS. Their uniform/camouflage looked so good. It still does! Specially compared to most uniforms of any other military group at that time.
"Funny" how I first thought (when I was in my early teenage years) that all Waffen-SS men were, let's put it this way, evil, compared to the Wehrmacht. Now that I'm older I have an way different look on them. (don't get me wrong, I'm not 'infatuated').
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Hi Patrick,
The Nuremburg War Crimes Trial agreed with you.
That is why, while it declared the SS a criminal organization, it did not make mere membership of the SS a criminal offence. To be a war criminal, an SS member had to be convicted of a specific war crime.
Cheers,
Sid.
The Nuremburg War Crimes Trial agreed with you.
That is why, while it declared the SS a criminal organization, it did not make mere membership of the SS a criminal offence. To be a war criminal, an SS member had to be convicted of a specific war crime.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Hi Sid,
Do you mean the Nuremburg War Crimes Trials agreed with me on my early thoughts about the Waffen-SS?
Because now I think totally different about it. Sure, the Waffen-SS commited war crimes, but I think it's not fair that they are most famous cause of these war crimes, like it's the only thing they did during the war. Don't think I'm gonna defend their crimes here, but if I see and read the war crimes commited by the Soviets or Japanese, those seems sometimes forgotten compared to the Waffen-SS.
Do you mean the Nuremburg War Crimes Trials agreed with me on my early thoughts about the Waffen-SS?
Because now I think totally different about it. Sure, the Waffen-SS commited war crimes, but I think it's not fair that they are most famous cause of these war crimes, like it's the only thing they did during the war. Don't think I'm gonna defend their crimes here, but if I see and read the war crimes commited by the Soviets or Japanese, those seems sometimes forgotten compared to the Waffen-SS.
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Patrick, I agree. Eupropean atrocities were worse because they were committed by a civilised country, but Japanese and Russian atrocities were "less". Why? There is an inherit racism implied. We don't need any massacres from which ever country but the SS seem to fit a western set of WORST EVER VILLIANS stereo types. The SS can't be right, but that's too simple. I've had too many beers. Gluten nacht.
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Please keep discussions on war crimes in the section focused on that topic: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=6
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Hi Patrick
You write, "I think it's not fair that they are most famous cause of these war crimes, like it's the only thing they did during the war."
The W-SS is known primarily for two things: (1) Its supposed superior combat performance and (2) its supposed higher propensity for committing war crimes.
While the former is not, apparently, true, when compared on a like-for-like basis with equivalent Army formations, the latter, sadly, is true. Although it formed only a small percentage of German forces in Western Europe, the W-SS was accused of most of the war crimes in the theatre.
Thus, while it is true that war crimes are not "the only thing they did during the war", it is entirely fair that war crimes form an enduring part of their reputation. Except in Greece, it certainly distinguishes them from the Army.
The nature of this forum and thread, make it inevitable that W-SS war crimes are going to be under the spotlight more here than those of anyone else. However, the war crimes of others do crop up quite widely elsewhere on AHF.
Cheers,
Sid
You write, "I think it's not fair that they are most famous cause of these war crimes, like it's the only thing they did during the war."
The W-SS is known primarily for two things: (1) Its supposed superior combat performance and (2) its supposed higher propensity for committing war crimes.
While the former is not, apparently, true, when compared on a like-for-like basis with equivalent Army formations, the latter, sadly, is true. Although it formed only a small percentage of German forces in Western Europe, the W-SS was accused of most of the war crimes in the theatre.
Thus, while it is true that war crimes are not "the only thing they did during the war", it is entirely fair that war crimes form an enduring part of their reputation. Except in Greece, it certainly distinguishes them from the Army.
The nature of this forum and thread, make it inevitable that W-SS war crimes are going to be under the spotlight more here than those of anyone else. However, the war crimes of others do crop up quite widely elsewhere on AHF.
Cheers,
Sid
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
One of the things that makes the Waffen-SS interesting is the numerous foreign divisions comprised entirely of French, Ukrainians, Swedes, Estonians, etc.
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
If you want to see a true multi-national force then look up the composition of the Allied Armies in Italy.luftschiff wrote:One of the things that makes the Waffen-SS interesting is the numerous foreign divisions comprised entirely of French, Ukrainians, Swedes, Estonians, etc.
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
There was never a Waffen-SS division comprised of Swedes. Not even a Regiment or a Bataillon.
Regards,
Pena V
Regards,
Pena V
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Hi Pena,
True. Recruitment of other "Nordics" was also disappointing. On average over the war only four Danes or Norwegians volunteered per day. As I have said before, there was not exactly a crush at the recruiting offices!
The other nationalities mentioned - French, Ukrainians, Estonians - were not initially recruited by the W-SS because of its racial theory. In fact it was the German Army that was the first to recruit them. They were only put under the W-SS in 1943 by political decree.
Nevertheless, I do agree that the multiplicity of national units within the W-SS order of battle is interesting. It should just be remembered that far from encouraging such a Pan-European Crusade against Judaeo-Bolshevik international Communism, the W-SS was initially only interested in "Nordics" and it was the German Army that initiated recruitment of the others.
Cheers,
Sid.
True. Recruitment of other "Nordics" was also disappointing. On average over the war only four Danes or Norwegians volunteered per day. As I have said before, there was not exactly a crush at the recruiting offices!
The other nationalities mentioned - French, Ukrainians, Estonians - were not initially recruited by the W-SS because of its racial theory. In fact it was the German Army that was the first to recruit them. They were only put under the W-SS in 1943 by political decree.
Nevertheless, I do agree that the multiplicity of national units within the W-SS order of battle is interesting. It should just be remembered that far from encouraging such a Pan-European Crusade against Judaeo-Bolshevik international Communism, the W-SS was initially only interested in "Nordics" and it was the German Army that initiated recruitment of the others.
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Sid,
Long time, no see. I don't know where you got this figure of "On average over the war only four Danes or Norwegians volunteered per day." but I trust that your calculation has been done correctly. My concern is what does this figure of four per day prove? That the Danes or Norwegians were not eager to join the Waffen-SS? I don't think that the average number of voluntees per day is a good way to measure the eagerness. Without knowing the actual figures I can imagine that for example during the summer of 1941 the figures were much higher and as the war came closer to the end the figures were much lower being probably zero in April-May 1945. When people think that Germany is going to win they join and when they think that Germany is going to loose they don't join. To me it's a miracle if someone joined after Stalingrad so roughly people had a bit over a year to join and from the end of 1942 to 1945 the Germans could be happy if they saw one volunteer per day.
In addition Germany had just occupied both Denmark and Norway so how many people were supposed to join the ranks of the enemy?
Can you say that only four per day is a disappointing result?
Regards,
Pena V
Long time, no see. I don't know where you got this figure of "On average over the war only four Danes or Norwegians volunteered per day." but I trust that your calculation has been done correctly. My concern is what does this figure of four per day prove? That the Danes or Norwegians were not eager to join the Waffen-SS? I don't think that the average number of voluntees per day is a good way to measure the eagerness. Without knowing the actual figures I can imagine that for example during the summer of 1941 the figures were much higher and as the war came closer to the end the figures were much lower being probably zero in April-May 1945. When people think that Germany is going to win they join and when they think that Germany is going to loose they don't join. To me it's a miracle if someone joined after Stalingrad so roughly people had a bit over a year to join and from the end of 1942 to 1945 the Germans could be happy if they saw one volunteer per day.
In addition Germany had just occupied both Denmark and Norway so how many people were supposed to join the ranks of the enemy?
Can you say that only four per day is a disappointing result?
Regards,
Pena V