Why the Waffen-SS

[Hyperion]

Here is personally why I am interested in the Waffen-SS.

One of the big things that made me research the Waffen-SS is the question of why did the Reich need two infantry branches? I still don't quite have a definite answer other than the SS wants to be better than everyone. One of the big things that I continuously heard that the Waffen SS did little wrong. While this is not the most true it drove me to look into the Waffen SS. As I looked into the Waffen-SS it showed that they were a brotherhood, these guys added a whole new meaning to comradery and brothers in arms. They were one of the only branches I found that wanted the enlisted men to be best friends with their officers. On top of the fact they were very organized never let anyone get a position due to friends in high places. No one could just slide into a high ranking officer position, this was one of the big reasons the Waffen SS was created. During early war Hitler put his best friends in power, they put their best friends in power and it went all the way down. This happened not just in the NSDAP and SS, this happened in the Wehrmacht as well. In the Waffen-SS, you had to rise through the ranks to Waffen Rottenführer (Note: Yes the rank is normally SS Rottenführer, but Waffen personnel were referred to as "Waffen rank" by non-Waffen personnel or when on none Waffen business) and where then given the option to go to Bad Tölz to attempt becoming an officer or they could continue the enlisted route and go NCO. The Waffen was intended for everyone to know what it was like to be an enlist. This was a sort of attempt for the officers to be more humble and know what it's like to be on the other end of their power. I found this sort of thing extremely interesting as at the time I knew nothing of WWII and found it weird that a bunch "Nazis" would do something of this sort.

Another big thing to me was that the Waffen-SS went from being a small group of guards to becoming the figure of an elite fighting force. It astounded me how much pride the Germans took in wearing those twin lightning bolts on their collars. How the NSDAP could not only glorify a military branch but sort of live up to their reputation of being top of the line. I also loved the smocks and helmet covers the Waffen-SS wore. Not only did they look amazing but the camouflage they offered was actually very effective. I've seen videos of reenactors not even be able to see their own guys when they're trying to ambush U.S. reenactors. I could go on and on about why I look into the Waffen-SS. I'm sure my reasoning is a lot different from other people but that's just me.

[j keenan]

Best friends with there officers ? top of the line ?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Hyperion,

You ask why the Germans needed two infantry branches?

The answer is that they didn't. The Army already had what was arguably the best conscript infantry branch in the world and the W-SS did not improve on it.

The W-SS was created for purely political reasons. Firstly, the Nazis felt that the Nazi Party had to share any blood sacrifice in any war and secondly because the Nazi leadership did not fully trust the Army high command.

If you look at the actual structure iof the W-SS you will find that its officer corps was largely middle class, like the Army.

Of course they used influence to get promotion. Sepp Dietrich never had staff officer training and was out of his depth as far as the higher technical side of professional soldiering went. Dietrich got his elevated post partly through being an old Nazi Party comrade of Hitler.

It is also a myth that the Army officer corps was the monopoly of the aristocracy. The Army expanded a hundredfold from 100,000 men to around 10,000,000 in a few years. The new Army officer corps was therefore largely from the same middle class background as most of the W-SS officers.
"Humble" W-SS officers? They were no more "humble" than those in the Army.

The Waffen-SS was not an elite fighting force. Most of its divisions were poor. There was no magic quality of "Waffen-SS-edness" that created super soldiers out of dross. Virtually the only W-SS divisions of notable quality were motorized or armoured. I would suggest that it was their membership of the wiser panzerwaffe (an Army creation) that gave them their disinction, not their membership of the SS.

The multi-coloured camouflage was not a W-SS invention. The Italians had a pre-war version and another version was created by the German Army in the mid 1930s. However, it was more expensive to manufacture, so the Army had to settle on producing masses of feldgrau for the rapidly expanding Army.

I suspect that your interest in the W-SS may often based on false assumptions.

Cheers,

Sid.

[offizier1916]

During my community service I spoke to a ss-veteran, who joined waffen-ss end 43 with 17. He didnt want to be forced to join the navy and the airforce, so it was either Heer or W-SS. So why Waffen-SS? no political reasons at all. Yes he was a patriot and would have died for germany -like the majority of young men at this time - but he was not antisemite or something else. He joined the Waffe-SS because rumors said that the rations and comradeship were better, furthermore his best friends of the HJ joined as well. He fought in France/Germany, received IC 2nd class, IAB, WB in black. although he admitted that he hated the western allies because of the bombing terror against the civilians, he guaranteed that his company never ever commited any war crime against the allied or any civilian.

its completely bullshit to associate joining the waffen ss automatically with political reasons. at least for young soldiers joining between 43-45. you cant generalize them

[Michael Kenny]

he guaranteed that his company never ever commited any war crime against the allied or any civilian.

Mandy Rice-Davies applies.

[offizier1916]

he guaranteed that his company never ever commited any war crime against the allied or any civilian.

Mandy Rice-Davies applies.

it seems that such statements do not fit into your limited world view.

[BillHermann]

Limited world veiw? I think not, there is much evidence to support the comment of Mandy Rice-Davies

The larger dynamic is that we take veterans word as gospel. Many do exaggerate and don't want to be implicated. Now I am not saying that the story is not true but the larger evidence with the Waffen-SS would suggest the contrary. The Waffen-SS with its parent organization the SS and its purpose would not suggest a nicer less brutal version of itself. One also has to consider the training and senior leadership, there would be a direct influence on the recruits. The allure of the Waffen-SS was more about the propaganda of the day and the movement. Being a part of an organization that is connected with the SS that was very much the idea of strength, duty and being racially better than others. This of course wouldn't apply to many of the conscripts later in the war.

This ongoing energy that is used to separate the SS from the Waffen-SS is troubling.

[DougW60]

This ongoing energy that is used to separate the SS from the Waffen-SS is troubling.

Bill

Do you have statistics or something along those lines that identify the transfers of personnel between the W-SS and the A-SS (Einsatzgruppen / concentration camp / extermination camp personnel)?

I can see your point if there was a systematic process to rotate personnel among these elements but I have not found any information to support this. I do agree at the beginning of the war, members who had participated in the running of the concentration camps were moved into the W-SS but I suspect most were either killed, wounded or became POWs by mid-war years. I do believe that wounded W-SS were moved into the A-SS elements but I do not know the numbers, why they were selected to do so, or what were the criteria for such an assignment.

I disagree with using a macro point of view that the A-SS and W-SS were the same in regards to personnel. But to suggest the W-SS, who had over a million persons moving through its ranks, most of whom were foreign nationals, the vast majority not being within the ranks of the W-SS until later in the war, is equal to the A-SS in regards to committing atrocities - does a disservice to those who did serve and to history.

Slam those who were involved in atrocities and slam them hard. Their names are to be known and placed in the hall of shame. I do believe that those who are guilty will be or are paying for their deeds but I do not accuse everyone that wore the ruins as guilty of a atrocity.

[BillHermann]

There are many threads discussing the statistics and numbers.

Spend some time on AHF and you will find the information. The first mistake you make is the whole sale separation you make on the "A-SS an W-SS" they were much closer than you think.

The issue lies in the spin turning the Waffen-SS into a purely combat formation void of politics. One only has to only follow the history of the senior SS members and NCO's in the early years that directly created the Waffen-SS. To assume that they had no political racial influence of the organization is absurd . There is also historical evidence of the direct involment throughout the war with the Waffen-SS and the holocaust.

There is much historical evidence that after 1941 the Waffen-SS was out growing its parent organization and was given much more responsibility outside of combat. After 1943 one can say the Waffen-SS as an organization was very much in control of many of the admintrative duties that used to be covered by previous organizations within the SS.

The first mistake you make is assuming that the Waffen-SS was a combat only organization.

[michael mills]

One only has to only follow the history of the senior SS members and NCO's in the early years that directly created the Waffen-SS. To assume that they had no political racial influence of the organization is absurd

Paul Hausser, a retired Reichswehr general, was recruited into the SS-Verfuegungstruppe in 1934 to head the SS-Officer Training School. He was a career soldier and not a political activist; the reason for his recruitment was to turn the SS-VT into an effective paramilitary units by training it in the appropriate military skills.

Like many military men he was a German nationalist, and after his retirement from the Reichswehr in 1932 he joined the Stahlhelm, a right-wing nationalist veterans' organisation. However, he was not a National Socialist and to my knowledge there are no indications that he endorsed the main features of National Socialist ideology, including its racial-biological theories.

Hausser became the first commander of the "SS Das Reich" division at the beginning of the war, and subsequently held a number of senior commands in the Waffen-SS, eventually rising to command a whole army in 1945. He fought in the French campaign in 1940, in Barbarossa, at Kharkov and Kursk, in Italy and Normandy, and in the final defence of Germany. He was severely wounded twice, in the eye in Russia and then in the jaw during the battle of the Falaise Gap.

In short, Hausser was very much a "soldier's soldier", and not a "political general". There is no evidence that he was ever involved in war crimes, and he was never charged with ordering illegal acts.

Hausser is a clear example of the fact that by no means all senior Waffen-SS officers were politically motivated, or proponents of racial ideology.

[j keenan]

However, he was not a National Socialist

Party Member his number 4 158 779
Awarded the Blood Order
Div. Kdr. Lahoysk massacre 9.41
Units who took part in the recapture of Kharkov committed atrocities

[michael mills]

Div. Kdr. Lahoysk massacre 9.41

What massacre was this? I was unable to find any information on it. The only information on a massacre in the Lahoysk Raion I was able to find was on the Khatyn massacre in 1943, committed by Ukrainian auxiliaries.

If you have any evidence that Hausser ordered a massacre at Lahoysk, perhaps you could post it rather than just making insinuations.

Units who took part in the recapture of Kharkov committed atrocities

Do you have any evidence that Hausser ordered units under his command to commit atrocities? If so, please post it.

So far as I know, Hausser was never accused of committing war crimes.

[j keenan]

I never said he ordered crimes only pointing out that he was an charge of units that did commit atrocities and he never brought anyone to be charged for these crimes.
Also your claim he wasn't a political soldier is wrong,your just doing your usual apologist slant on things I don't do insinuations just facts

[michael mills]

You are ducking and weaving, Mr Keenan. You were quite clearly insinuating that Hausser was responsible for the commission of atrocities by Waffen-SS units, but have not presented any evidence to back up those insinuations.

"Political soldiers" were Waffen-SS commanders such as Sepp Dietrich or Theodor Eicke, who were part of the National Socialist power structure before they were given command over military formations. That was certainly not the case with Hausser, whose appointment to head the SS-Officer Training School was based on his experience as a general in the Reichswehr, not on any strong ideological commitment to National Socialism.

As a German nationalist, he would of course have supported the specifically nationalist elements of National Socialist ideology. But is there any evidence of his having propagated other distinctive features of that ideology, such as its racial theories and its intense anti-Semitism? Is there any evidence of his preaching a war of extermination against Untermenschen?

The fact that he became a member of the NSDAP is not particularly conclusive, given that eventually something like 25% of all male Germans became members. Any competent historian will tell you that by no means all members of the NSDAP were fanatical supporters of Hitler; many, perhaps the majority, joined the Party for purely careerist reasons.

[BillHermann]

The good old Pappa Hausser argument, the lighter more softer side of the SS.

I find it interesting that one man is used to lighten the organizations purpose. It's like the other point not all the soldiers were criminals and did bad things. I am sure most here would agree that not all Waffen-SS members were evil maniacs but one can not say that because a number of members were not political that the organization was a softer version of what it really was.