Why the Waffen-SS

[j keenan]

You are ducking and weaving, Mr Keenan. You were quite clearly insinuating that Hausser was responsible for the commission of atrocities by Waffen-SS units, but have not presented any evidence to back up those insinuations.

I have not insinuated that Hausser was responsible for the commission of atrocities by Waffen-SS units but he was in charge of said units when these actions happened which are stated in numerous publications.
Also I doubt Hausser was only put in charge of the Schools because of his experience as a general in the Reichswehr, but he must have been a committed National Socialist as Himmler was trusting him with the training and indoctrination of the future officer Korps of the SS.He went on to recieve the two highest political awards for the Nazis and was quite happy to wear the party badge.He also saw the darker side of the party after visiting the camps in 41.Who knows what he talked about in the inner-circles of power ? So not just your normal soldier's soldier as you imply

[DougW60]

Bill

One only has to only follow the history of the senior SS members and NCO's in the early years that directly created the Waffen-SS.

And I made that observation in my post, but it does not do justice to those who came later, those who were foreign nationals incorporated into the W-SS, and those who were indeed posted to and remained in combat units.

To assume that they had no political racial influence of the organization is absurd.

Please provide where I said that the W-SS was void of politics. Do you consider it unusual for a military organization to have a political charter?

The first mistake you make is assuming that the Waffen-SS was a combat only organization.

I agree that the concentration camps / extermination camps were guarded by members under the W-SS administrative control. What I had asked of you was evidence that there was a policy that systematically rotated W-SS personnel between combat formations and camp duties. I have not seen such documentation and from the sources I do have, assignment to a combat unit meant it was for the duration of the war unless the individual was wounded and could not return to combat, there was a disciplinary problem and the soldier would be punished, or a soldier requested and received approval to transfer.

I think you misunderstood my point regarding my view of the W-SS. I will not condemn every member of the W-SS based solely on their enrollment in the organization. If a ex-member of the W-SS told me he was not involved in atrocities, okay, I will not judge him as being guilty of crimes he says he was not part of. That judgement will come later by a power far more just than I. For me to hold that standard of guilt by association, which I believe is what you are insisting we do, than I must hold that standard for all organizations to include the present.

Please re-read my last paragraph in my original post.

[BillHermann]

I certainly don't need to read the last sentence and why may I ask are you saying that I am asking you to pass any judgment. Questioning and analysis is not judgment. It is just not taking all stories told as gospel.

[michael mills]

The good old Pappa Hausser argument, the lighter more softer side of the SS.

Bill Hermann,

My post about Hausser was in response to this prejudiced and ignorant statement:

One only has to only follow the history of the senior SS members and NCO's in the early years that directly created the Waffen-SS. To assume that they had no political racial influence of the organization is absurd.

I gave the example of Hausser to demonstrate the prejudiced and ignorant nature of that statement. Hausser was a retired career officer who was recruited into the SS-VT from the veterans organisation Stahlhelm for the purpose of making use of his military expertise, not because he was a National Socialist zealot. In that respect he was a contrast to Waffen-SS commanders such as Sepp Dietrich and Theodor Eicke, who were not career soldiers and were appointed to the command of combat units purely because of their background as supporters of National Socialism.

There were many members of the SS who ended up in that organisation not because they had volunteered, but because formations they belonged to were incorporated into it. For example, all officers of the Criminal Police and the State Police were given rank in the Allgemeine SS, regardless of whether they wanted it or not.

Another outstanding example is Heinrich Mueller, the commander of the Gestapo, who had in no way been a National Socialist before Hitler's assumption of power. In fact, as a senior officer in the Bavarian Political Police, he had been involved in the suppression of the National Socialist Party. He was offered the position of head of the Gestapo by Heydrich precisely because of his experience in suppressing political parties, in particular the Communists, regardless of the fact that he was in no way a supporter of National Socialism. In fact, at the time of his appointment as Gestapo chief he was not even a member of the NSDAP.

As head of the Gestapo, Mueller eventually became deeply involved in the most criminal aspects of the National Socialist regime. Fortunately for Hausser, as a commander of Waffen-SS combat formations at the divisional and higher levels, he was involved only in genuine military operations, despite the prejudiced insinuations of Mr Keenan, unaccompanied by any solid evidence.

[michael mills]

Here is some information on the first functions of Hausser in the SS, posted earlier in this Forum:

/viewtopic.php?t=8973

"Stahlhelm" at Berlin (February 1933 - April 1934),
SA, SA-Staf. (March 1934),
SA Res.-Brigade 125 (March - November 1934),
SS on 15. November 1934 (Nr. 239.795),
SS-Staf. (15. November 1934),
NSDAP on 1. May 1937 (Nr. 4.138.779),
Kdr. SS-Junkerschule Braunschweig until 1. June 1936,
Inspekteur d. SS-Junkeschulen (1. August 1935 - 5. May 1937),
Chef Führungsamt/SS Hauptamt (1. June 1936 - 1. October 1937),
Inspekteur d. SS-VT (1. October 1936 - 10. August 1939),

What is most significant is the late date at which Hausser joined the NSDAP, 1 May 1937. That was a time at which a lot of Germans were joining the Party for careerist rather than ideological reasons.

So, when Hausser joined the SS on 15 November 1934, for the purpose of training officers of the SS-VT, he was not even a member of the NSDAP!

It is entirely possible that Hausser only joined the Party because Himmler may have had a quiet word to him along the lines that, since he had been Inspector of the Junkerschulen since 1 August 1935, and Chief of the Fuehrungsamt at the SS-Hauptamt since 1 June 1936, and Inspector of the SS-VT since 1 October 1936, he really ought to show his commitment to the SS by joining the Party.

The facts of Hausser's early career in the SS give the lie to the insinuations of Mr Keenan that Hausser was a committed National Socialist who was a firm believer in National Socialist ideology and had been appointed head of the SS Officer Training Schools for the purpose of indoctrinating the students in that ideology.

[Michael Kenny]

You lie with dogs and you get fleas.
Why waste time on this minor detail when there is a wealth of documentation that show both Waffen SS and Army units were involved in mass killings in the field.

[DougW60]

Bill, the two quotes from your initial response to my post where somehow you assumed I did not consider political influence and that I assumed the W-SS was strictly a combat organization. These are judgements based on non-existent statements, thereby presenting a position that those who do not articulate the same views as yours are absurb and approaching the research of the W-SS from a biased position.

Bill, this is not personal. When I study anything regarding people and organizations, I know there horrible people who do horrible things and there are decent people who do not do horrible things, therefore I address the W-SS as such an organization and I will write accordingly.

[Michael Miller]

Regarding Paul Hausser's political attitudes, here is an excerpt from a "Final Interrogation Report", dated 9 July 1945 and signed by Major Paul Kubala of the U.S. 7th Army Interrogation Center in Augsburg:

“Source [Hausser] is a firm believer in Hitler’s theories, and attempted to justify most of the Fuehrer’s deeds, but he talked freely on military matters. Formerly a Prussian [sic] general in the Army, source stressed the fact that he was primarily a military leader and not a politician…”
(Interrogation Records Prepared for War Crimes Proceedings at Nuernberg, 1945-1947/OCCPAC Interrogation Transcripts And Related Records: Hausser, Paul; Publication Number M1270, Record Group RG238)

Best wishes,
~ Mike

[Michael Kenny]

I think that a lot of it comes down to the fact that when we are taught a kind of 'superficial' history at school we seem to be spoon fed this idea of the SS as a monolithic organisation of 6 foot blonde fanatics who spend their time murdering Jews and POWs and pretty much anyone else they can get their hands on.
Later, as you look deeper into the war you find that alongside the war crimes are many stories of heroism, sacrifice and military prowess that are often unsung outside of the axis history community. Therefore, those who are impressed by these accounts feel the need to present a more 'balanced' perspective on the W-SS.

The SS are massively over-represented in all accounts of WW2. Claims that a 'defence' of the SS is needed to illustrate their 'unsung' story of 'heroism, sacrifice and military prowess' is complete rubbish. The dog-whistle words used to adorn the jackets of books about the SS belies your claim. Honour, Loyalty, Knights, Samaurai, Elite. Warriors etc. I would say 90% of the titles whitewash the SS.
There has been a sustained and relentless campaign rehabilitate the Waffen SS and try and distance then from the crimes they willingly carried out in furtherance of their warped ideology.
Anyone claiming this hero-worship of a criminal organisation is just an attempt to correct misconceptions is deluding themselves.
These covers are just examples. If I had the time I could give you dozens of examples.

[michael mills]

Regarding Paul Hausser's political attitudes, here is an excerpt from a "Final Interrogation Report", dated 9 July 1945 and signed by Major Paul Kubala of the U.S. 7th Army Interrogation Center in Augsburg:

“Source [Hausser] is a firm believer in Hitler’s theories, and attempted to justify most of the Fuehrer’s deeds, but he talked freely on military matters. Formerly a Prussian [sic] general in the Army, source stressed the fact that he was primarily a military leader and not a politician…”
(Interrogation Records Prepared for War Crimes Proceedings at Nuernberg, 1945-1947/OCCPAC Interrogation Transcripts And Related Records: Hausser, Paul; Publication Number M1270, Record Group RG238)

This conclusion by Kubala is not very useful unless we know exactly what questions he asked Hausser and what the latter's answers were.

Presumably Kubala put to Hausser a number of propositions that he considered to be Hitler's theories, and Hausser agreed with them, leading Kubala to the conclusion that Hausser was a "firm believer" in those theories. But which of Hitler's theories did Kubala put to Hausser?

If Kubala asked Hausser whether he believed that Jews were an inferior race and were responsible for all the misfortunes that had befallen Germany, and Hausser agreed, then it would be reasonable to conclude that Hausser was a supporter of National Socialist racial theory. But we do not know whether Kubala asked that question.

On the other hand, if Hausser expressed agreement with Hitler's theory that all territories with an ethnic German population should belong to the German Reich, that would qualify him as a German nationalist but not necessarily as a supporter of all aspects of National Socialist ideology.

Similarly with Hausser's attempts to justify Hitler's actions. An attempt to justify the mass extermination of the Jews would certainly qualify him as a supporter of NS racial ideology. But if his attempts at justification were limited to military actions such as the invasions of Poland or the Soviet Union, then the conclusion would be different.

[j keenan]

The facts of Hausser's early career in the SS give the lie to the insinuations of Mr Keenan that Hausser was a committed National Socialist who was a firm believer in National Socialist ideology and had been appointed head of the SS Officer Training Schools for the purpose of indoctrinating the students in that ideology.

Your insinuations Mills are based on apologist right wing fantasy land

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Michael,

You emphasize Hausser's date of joining the Nazi Party (1937), without highlighting the earlier part of his career in 1934 in the SA, which was also part of the Nazi Party. For a couple of years before this he was in the Stalhelm, which was absorbed into the Nazi Party. Thus his association with the Nazi Party and its precursors dates back to shortly before Hitler came to power.

If I remember rightly at least one other well known W-SS figure (Peiper?) did not join the NSDAP until the last year of the war.

Such individuals were clearly an exception in the W-SS officer corps, but they were ideological Nazis none the less.

Cheers,

Sid.

[michael mills]

Sid,

You have confused a number of different things.

After his retirement from the Reichswehr in 1932, Hausser joined the Stahlhelm which was a right-wing nationalist veterans organisation. From that fact, we may deduce that Hausser was a supporter of German nationalism, which was a very common position for German military officers. The Stahlhelm differed from the NSDAP in that it was monarchist.

Here are some details of how the Stahlhelm was merged with the SA in 1934:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stahlhelm ... ntsoldaten

After the Nazi seizure of power on 30 January 1933, the new authorities urged for a merge into the party's Sturmabteilung (SA) paramilitary organization. Franz Seldte [the head of the Stahlhelm] joined the Hitler Cabinet as Reich Minister for Labour, prevailing against Duesterberg, who had already come running for his swearing-in. The Stahlhelm still tried to keep its distance from the Nazis, and in the run-up to the German federal election of 5 March 1933 formed the united conservative "Black-White-Red Struggle Front" (Kampffront Schwarz-Weiß-Rot) with the DNVP and the Agricultural League, reaching 8% of the votes. On 27 March 1933 a SA raid with the intention of disarmament on Stahlhelm members in Braunschweig, who under the command of Werner Schrader had forged an alliance with scattered Republican Reichsbanner forces. The violent incident initiated by Nazi Minister Dietrich Klagges and later called Stahlhelm Putsch was characteristic of the pressure applied by the Nazis on the Stahlhelm in this period, mistrusting the organization due to its fundamentally monarchist character. In April Seldte applied for membership in the NSDAP and also joined the SA, from August 1933 in the rank of an Obergruppenführer.
On 27 April 1933, Seldte had officially declared the Stahlhelm subordinate to Hitler's command. The attempts by the Nazis to integrate the Stahlhelm succeeded in 1934 in the course of the "voluntary" Gleichschaltung process: the organization was renamed Nationalsozialistischer Deutscher Frontkämpferbund (League of National Socialist Frontline-Fighters) while large parts were merged into the SA as Wehrstahlhelm, Reserve I and Reserve II contingents. The remaining Frontkämpferbund veterans' units were finally dissolved by decree of Adolf Hitler on 7 November 1935. Seldte's rival Duesterberg was interned at Dachau concentration camp upon the Night of the Long Knives at the beginning of July 1934, but released soon after.

It is obvious that the merger of the Stahlhelm with the SA was not achieved by a free vote of all its members, but by a deal between Seldte and Hitler. Hausser became a member of the SA by reason of the fact that an organisation to which he belonged was more or less compulsorily absorbed into it; we cannot assume that he wanted to become a member of the SA, or that his membership in it indicated his support for all elements of National Socialist ideology.

Thus, your claim that Hausser was an "ideological Nazi" is a prejudice on your part, unsupported by impartial evidence, derived from your prejudicial view that all senior officers of the Waffen-SS must have been fanatical National Socialists by definition.

Nothing in Hausser's career shows him as joining any National Socialist political organisation out of ideological conviction. The only organisation he joined voluntarily after his retirement from the Reichswehr was the Stahlhelm. The only reason he ended up in a paramilitary organisation linked to and controlled by the NSDAP, namely the SA, was that the Stahlhelm was absorbed by that organisation.

We cannot know whether or not he would have voluntarily joined any organisation linked to the NSDAP if the Stahlhelm had not been absorbed into the SA. The fact that he joined the NSDAP fairly late, three years after he had become a member of the SA through absorption rather than through voluntary enlistment, and after over a million persons had already joined it, suggests that he was not driven by an ideological commitment to National Socialism.

As I wrote previously, Hausser probably agreed with many elements of National Socialist ideology, but that is because those particular elements were common to all variants of German nationalism, eg the concept of a Greater Germany incorporating all territories with an ethnic German population, or which had been part of the German Reich in the past. His agreement with those particular elements does not mean that he was a genocidal maniac, and nothing in his career in the Waffen-SS suggests that he was.

[j keenan]

Peiper joined around 38
Loyalty is my Honour is an excellent book giving first hand veteran accounts of there time in the W-SS

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Michael,

Please don't make my position up. If you want to debate with yourself, feel free, but leave my name out of it.

Hausser had plenty of opportunities to disassociate himself from the Nazis and still serve Germany, but he did not do so. He seems to have meekly followed from the Stalhelm, via the SA, to the SS at a time when the German Army was in desperate need of experienced recent soldiers from the Reichswehr (he had only retired from the professionally elite Reichswehr in 1932).

I would suggest that it is not true that "The only reason he ended up in a paramilitary organisation linked to and controlled by the NSDAP, namely the SA, was that the Stahlhelm was absorbed by that organisation." Hausser had another home in the Army that he chose not to go to. Instead he made a choice to remain in a series of NSDAP institutions and eventually took out party membership.

I accept he was probably something of an opportunist, but I see nothing to indicate he wasn't a supporter of Nazism, "fanatical" (your word, not mine) or otherwise.

Cheers,

Sid.