Why the Waffen-SS

[Gorque]

Hi Michael,

As I understand it, Reitlinger's purpose was to establish the minimum indisputable figure for Jewish deaths, so that future revisionists and deniers would have difficulty quibbling over them.

Hi Sid:

This tactic was also used by the German legal authorities in order to avoid being bogged down with murdered individuals whose whereabouts could not be ascertained with reasonable certainty.

[offizier1916]

sry

[whelihan]

The fact that there were 38 divisions in SS and the Waffen -SS served along side of the Army.
Seemed very popular then ,just by the numbers of men, taking orders from Himmler.

[j keenan]

There was never 38 Divs ever in the Waffen-SS stop living in fantasy land

[BillHermann]

The other point is that most of the SS divisions were anything but full fledged division you look at when the most were created and what they were composed of including numbers and sub units. Some of the late war SS divisions were a hodgepodge of units some were not SS. I also doubt that there was whole sale praise from the army. Lastly what does Himmler in command of a fighting army have anything to do with this. It was about loyalty and politics when he was put in place near the end not military skill.

[j keenan]

In the end Himmler wasn't that loyal

[Pena V]

Jamie,

There were 38 SS-Divisions or even more if you include 23.D (Kama), 29.D (Russian 1), 30.D (Russian 2) and 33.D (Hungarian 3). We both know that the late SS-Division were weak but thay were called divisions anyway so whelihan is not living in fantasy land.
I agree that in the end Himmler wasn't that loyal.

Regards,

Pena V

[j keenan]

It is living in Fantasy land if you think there were 38 plus Waffen-SS divisions as the latter were little more than reinforced Btls. or battle groups.

[Ironmachine]

We both know that the late SS-Division were weak but thay were called divisions anyway so whelihan is not living in fantasy land.

Those who named those units as divisions during WWII were certainly living in fantasy land. Whelihan may be living there or not, depending on whether he knows what they really were or not.

[Pena V]

I think Ironmachine's definition is good:

Those who named those units as divisions during WWII were certainly living in fantasy land.

but because they actually were named divisions why shouldn't we use their correct name instead of calling them for example 38. SS-reinforced-Bataillon or 38. SS-Kampf-Gruppe. That would only add confusion.

Regards,

Pena V

[j keenan]

The Heer had no problem calling them what they were, to use the Walloons as one example.

[Pena V]

Jamie,

I would have no problem calling for example the 38. SS-Grenadier-Division "Niebelungen" a Brigade, a Regiment or a Bataillon if it had been named so but the fact is that it was named a Division and saying that someone is living in fantasy land just because he uses the correct names of the units is nonsense.

Regards,

Pena V

[Sid Guttridge]

During the war, the Germans had little choice but to refer to their formations and units by the designations given them by their high command. They also had a vested interest in inflating their OB.

However, if we today continue to use these inflated designations without qualification, we are doing accurate history a disservice.

Many of the later W-SS "divisions" were only what used to be known as "mixed brigades". i.e. they contained units of more than one arm, usually an infantry regiment or two and an artillery battalion or batteries.)

Cheers,

Sid.

[j keenan]

As Sid says
However, if we today continue to use these inflated designations without qualification, we are doing accurate history a disservice,and living in a fantasy Waffen-SS land

[Pena V]

We all agree that

the late SS-Divisions were weak

This is not an issue. The issue here is that if someone calls them divisions is it right to say that he

is living in Fantasy land

How about Axis History Factbook? Under the heading Waffen-SS divisions they list all 38 divisions. Are they too living in Fantasy land? If so who defines which units shoud be called divisions? Jamie? Sid? Somebody else (who)?

Regards,

Pena V