Why the Waffen-SS

[j keenan]

of interest is Hermann Balck's memoir "Order in Chaos". He comments favorably the 1.SSLAH AND 1.Pz as being an "elite force" in late 1943, per his mindset/criteria, which can be explored in his postwar US army interviews. Also, he comments that the 19.Pz and 7.Pz were very effective formations. What he does not comment on was how weak and physically worn out the latter two formations were- yet they too were used for the counterstrikes west of Kiev.

On what page does he claim these to be elite divisions ? He also goes on to slate the SS divisions so have you read the book ?

You haven't read the book then ?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Cult Icon,

It is interesting that the 1st W-SS Pz. Div. is put in amongst three Army panzer divisions in Balck's list. This tends to imply that it was the connection to the Panzerwaffe, not to the Waffen-SS, that gave it its status militarily.

Clearly, some senior, motorized or armoured, W-SS divisions performed well in combat. However, this seems to be far more because of their armour and mobility than some magical quality of "Waffen-SS-edness" that added value to their performance.

It is interesting that no one ever argues that any non-mechanized W-SS divisions were "elite" in their particular field.

Cheers,

Sid.

[j keenan]

There where was nothing wrong with the Waffen-SS divisions that were stood up
at the beginning of the war.On the contrary, high esprit de corps, good people, and
good equipment resulted in highly capable divisions.But as soon as the Waffen-SS
leaders tried to exceed their capabilities, the result was considerable damage.Chiefs of
police, even if they were lieutenants in World War I, did not make good generals.Himmler’s
continual efforts to withdraw his divisions frequently for reconstitution was especially disruptive.
The resulting uncertainty in the chain of command developed a leadership vacuum in which the
troops did what ever they want.Waffen-SS divisions frequently disappeared from the battlefields
as they moved piecemeal to reconstitute.Once I had to order a withdrawing Waffen-SS unit under
my command that had already been loaded on railcars to detrain and return to the front.At one point
a small part of the 1st SS Panzer Division was fighting in the East while the main body was reconstituting
in the West against orders.Enemy intelligence thought that was an intentional bit of deception on our part.
P 449 university press of Kentucky version of Balck’s Order in Chaos

[j keenan]

No, because the Corps is specialized in amphibious warfare and expeditionary operations, while Waffen-SS had no speciality of their own at all. There were just politically more reliable for the Nazi regime.
Every single minor detachment (comparing to the majority) appears to be "elite". It's natural and it's encouraged by the emulation. It can be true but it is not always, not even often, the case. For the Waffen-SS, it was not.

CNE503

Politically more reliable for the Nazi regime ? In what way ?
There is no reference to a Wehrmacht unit refusing to carry out an order in which the Waffen-SS were sent in to carry out the order as far as I'm aware.

[CNE503]

I meant that their soldiers were presumably more reliable nazis than the average draftees. But even that can be questionable, you're right:
1) some Waffen-SS divisions were unfamous because of their mutinies (13. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Handschar" in southern France in October 1943 for instance);
2) when the Waffen-SS incorporated Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine or young untrained recruits as of 1943.

CNE503

[Cult Icon]

Here's a copy of Balck's interviews (he was chief of mobile forces and commander of G.D. for a while)

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a160703.pdf

You need to read further in Order in Chaos, into the portion that covers the counterattack of 48.Panzer Korps west of Kiev. He even talks favorably about the much maligned Peiper. He also writes about a party where he sat next to what seems to be Bobby Woll (a SS tank gunner with the Knight's Cross) before the execution of Operation "Watutin" (attack against the Soviet 1TA). Men of the 1.SSLAH and 1.Pz were present.

[Cult Icon]

You will have to clarify with a bit of evidence.

Well, you'll have to spend more time reading operational and unit histories....

[CNE503]

He was commander of Panzergrenadier-Division "Grossdeutschland" at a time when it didn't proceed to offensive operations (late April-late June 1943).
He probably fought alongside SS mechanized units as 11. Panzer-Division commander early 1943 (but IIRC 11. Panzer-Division was in Slaviansk area, not near Kharkov or Bielgorod where operated the SS. Panzerkorps) and when he became commander of XXXXVIII. Panzerkorps (November 1943 - August 1944).

Anyway, Sid and J Kennan asked for a quote about him describing a SS unit as "elite". I also doubt about that. But please go on, I would be glad to apologize about my mistake.

CNE503

[Cult Icon]

- Also, besides Dietrich's army, the 17.SS division prior to Operation Nordwind (considered to be a division that underperformed its resources by its commanding army) was the most heavily refilled unit of the operation- even more than participating panzer divisions. It was assigned the most critical effort.

-On the value of the leadership corps- the 17.SS went into action in the battle of Bocage under developed and with only 60% of its authorized leadership. As a primary unit of the 7.AOK defending the Bocage (along with 3.FJD on its right wing) , this was sufficient to generate a lot of resistance. 3.FJD, according to Zaloga,was considered to have twice the combat power of a regular infantry division by the Germans despite being not amazingly well equipped (only 1 artillery battalion, inventory below authorized).

[CNE503]

We can find as much evidences of Waffen-SS poor performance as of their efficiency. Because no one here said that they were only a bunch of crapy guys doing nothing else than mass-murdering civilians.
But Waffen-SS was not an elite - so many of their units were ill-fated and performed very poorly that it would make no sense - and neither were the SS mechanized units, which were comparable to their Heer counterparts and were in no way better (and your quotes about Balck's book don't say anything else).

CNE503

[Cult Icon]

Anyway, Sid and J Kennan asked for a quote about him describing a SS unit as "elite". I also doubt about that. But please go on, I would be glad to apologize about my mistake.

Not 1.Pz, but 7.Pz

" I sat next to a Gefreiter who had the Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross and eighty-one confirmed tank kills. The situation only became a little touchy when the troops of the 1st SS Panzer Division and the 7th Panzer Division decided to settle the question of which of the two divisions was better. But that situation was eventually resolved with a friendly handshake. Overall the troops were relaxed and friendly. They were quite different from the faces of the soldiers of 1918. The latter had been hard-edged, with sunken cheeks and dogged faces reflecting their problems. The soldiers of this war were well fed, and confidence reflected in their faces. It was an elite force we had assembled there.59 "

Balck uses the word "elite" 13 times in the book.

[j keenan]

Anyway, Sid and J Kennan asked for a quote about him describing a SS unit as "elite". I also doubt about that. But please go on, I would be glad to apologize about my mistake.

Not 1.Pz, but 7.Pz

" I sat next to a Gefreiter who had the Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross and eighty-one confirmed tank kills. The situation only became a little touchy when the troops of the 1st SS Panzer Division and the 7th Panzer Division decided to settle the question of which of the two divisions was better. But that situation was eventually resolved with a friendly handshake. Overall the troops were relaxed and friendly. They were quite different from the faces of the soldiers of 1918. The latter had been hard-edged, with sunken cheeks and dogged faces reflecting their problems. The soldiers of this war were well fed, and confidence reflected in their faces. It was an elite force we had assembled there.59 "

Balck uses the word "elite" 13 times in the book.

Which refers to the whole of the armed forces, he is scathing of the Waffen-SS as a whole in general in the rest of his book.

[j keenan]

Quote the 13 times in is use of the word elite with page number

[Cult Icon]

Which makes sense, as the Waffen SS as a whole outside of a couple of divisions was substandard. Control + F (search the word)

Sorry, I don't work for you or the slightly flawed editorial stance of this thread.

[Michael Kenny]

Balck uses the word "elite" 13 times in the book.

In the quote given it was reference to ' soldiers of this war.'