Why the Waffen-SS

[BillHermann]

This is something that I don't understand, and I only really see it in the defence of the Waffen SS. It may have somthing to do with shame or embarrassment, maybe other reasons as well.

Rarely in the discussion in these kinds of threads is there a lack of understanding of the facts that not all were bad or a lack of understanding that some may have had family members in the Waffen-SS. The discussion of why is not about the respect of the individual or the concept that not all criminals. Both those arguments are logical and obvious and don't need to be used over and over again because that does not answer the question of why the Waffen-SS have become so trendy by a large portion of amateur history buffs. In fact that kind of defence only perpetuates the ignorance of the defence.

A family member of mine was in the RAF in a Lancaster, many here and elsewhere feel that he is just as bad as the Waffen-SS which is an opinion but not factally true. I though do not feel its necessary repeatedly say some of us have family or they were not all bad.

The simple question still is why are they trendy (Cool), why has so much fiction been created. Why is there whole sale defence of the organization and the constant effort to separate the organization completely from the SS when we know it's not factual. Finally I find it ironic that the Elite status is always floating around while at the same time trying to disasoosiate the organization from the SS and Nazis. When it's the association with the SS and Nazis that gave them the propaganda Elite status in Nazi Germany.

If there is to be defence find factual evidence that contradicts the actual records from Nazi Germany.

[phylo_roadking]

Well, the "why" can partly be explained in that respect/admiration/liking for ALL the regalia and trappings of Nazism were an early expression of teenage rebellion in postwar decades - in the UK certainly, AND in the U.S. Only as late as the late 1980s for instance did the HA around the world at last ban its members displaying Nazi or SS symbollism - prior to that, pick up an old copy of Easyriders and see the Sigrunen plastered across club members' bikes, etc...

Or....look at something as "British" as the 1960s-rebellious "Billy Liar" and his dreams of leading a panzer division...or George Harrison and other Beatles expressing admiration in their early days for some aspects of Nazism....



I've seen it expressed as the ultimate in-your-face "f**k you!" to authority...particularly the EXTREMELY regimented authority in the UK and particularly the U.S. of the two immediately postwar decades....where people were being drafted into wars they didn't agree with or see the need for by the same authorities that their fathers were, fathers that went into the forces 1941-45 as the rebels they were now - and came out either far far worse....but in the main came out with an unquestioning respect for authority and never a head hair longer than a quarter inch

[BillHermann]

Now we are getting somewhere

[tonyh]

But for every Theofor Eicke, or Max Simon, there was a Paul Hausser, or Kurt Meyer, or Wilhelm Mohnke, or Wilhelm Bittrich, or Felix Steiner, or Fritz Witt.

You mean people who committed warcrimes at the front instead of in the camps?

Oh yawn...

[Harro]

Oh yawn...

Then what do you mean? Not the "Soldiers Like Any Other" I hope.

[phylo_roadking]

Here's what I mean....

An English Hell's Angel guarding the one-day hippy squat/sit-in at 144 Piccadilly in London...



Another English Angel in Hyde Park in 1969...



Spot Sonny Barger's "Deaths' Head" in 1965...



HA Auckland, NZ...1966....



Even the mass media of the day picked up on HOW it was being used to "blow people's minds"....

[Harro]

That's very useful input "phylo_roadking", however, I do believe that there's a big difference between the typical youngster/teenage "SS fan" who wants to provoke his parents and society, and the die hard SS appologists.

[phylo_roadking]

however, I do believe that there's a big difference between the typical youngster/teenage "SS fan" who wants to provoke his parents and society, and the die hard SS appologists.

Yes, but what's the actual difference between a rebellious teenager of the early 1970s, and an SS apologist in his 50s or 60s nowadays???

The answer is very simple - just 30 or 40 years!

Where do you think SS apologists come from? They were teenagers too, somewhere and somewhen...

Somehow, somewhere along the line they picked this stuff up....and instead of learning better, they fastened too much on it. How it affected them, how it manifests in them...changes as they change through life; but it's something that doesn't just magically appear with your first grey scrotal hair or get issued along with your first pension cheque or OAP bus pass

[Harro]

Not so sure about that, I've noticed that a lot of SS appologists come frome a background which is also positive towards the SS and nazism because of fathers, grandfathers and/or other relatives who served in the SS (or parents who have a positive view on nazism without relatives who served). They don't provoke their society, they follow them. But perhaps that's my western European background: I've seen this often with German, Dutch, Flemish and Scandinavian SS fans.

[tonyh]

Oh yawn...

Then what do you mean? Not the "Soldiers Like Any Other" I hope.

Statements like "You mean people who committed warcrimes at the front instead of in the camps?" in response to "But for every Theofor Eicke, or Max Simon, there was a Paul Hausser, or Kurt Meyer, or Wilhelm Mohnke, or Wilhelm Bittrich, or Felix Steiner, or Fritz Witt." is tiresome.

[phylo_roadking]

In regards to the cultural strain of rebelliousness, take a read through the three pages of THIS

[link to a site with virus or other unsafe content removed]

I've noticed that a lot of SS appologists come frome a background which is also positive towards the SS and nazism because of fathers, grandfathers and/or other relatives who served in the SS (or parents who have a positive view on nazism without relatives who served). They don't provoke their society, they follow them. But perhaps that's my western European background: I've seen this often with German, Dutch, Flemish and Scandinavian SS fans.

Well, yes But of course it DOESN'T explain UK or US-based apologism!

But think of it this way - they're still rebelling! THIS time however against the mass obrobium of the REST of the European societies they are embedded in Quite literally - in loco parentis! The said parents and grandparents CAN'T stand up and defend themselves...so the younger generation, perhaps feeling themselves tainted by it in the opinions of others....do!

[Harro]

I don't mean what does "oh yawn" mean, I want to now what you mean when you say...

But for every Theofor Eicke, or Max Simon, there was a Paul Hausser, or Kurt Meyer, or Wilhelm Mohnke, or Wilhelm Bittrich, or Felix Steiner, or Fritz Witt.

because it tastes like the usual "Soldiers Like Any Other" mantra Hausser invented and which is again and again parroted by Waffen-SS appologists despite being complete bantam.

[phylo_roadking]

(do you mean "bunkum"? A bantam is a small hen....)

[BillHermann]

I find the constant reminder of there were good ones too or they were not all as bad as other tiresome as well coming from this side of the debate. We all know and agree that some had far more guilt than others and that the ones that were not directly involved with crimes or had nothing to do with them. But the concept that they should be given respect and not be associated with the organization or the bad ones is a little more challenging. This is what is missing when the good ones come up in the argument. even Paul Hauser and Wilhem Bittrich were in the SS and SA. Both of their early pre war roots came from the key organizations that helped the Nazis come to power and murder the innocent. Even older members like Paul Hauser would not have joined the SS if he did not belive in their values and traditions.

So no they were not as bad, perhaps, but anyone that was a major or above would have had some level of association and history with the SS and Nazis. If you went to a junkerschule, part of the SA, guarded Hitler, trained at any Waffen-SS installation, you would have had been influenced by the traditions, policies, propaganda and lore of the SS and Nazis.

The question is not who was good and who was bad but that why ....

[waldzee]

Here's what I mean....

An English Hell's Angel guarding the one-day hippy squat/sit-in at 144 Piccadilly in London...



Another English Angel in Hyde Park in 1969...



Spot Sonny Barger's "Deaths' Head" in 1965...



HA Auckland, NZ...1966....



Even the mass media of the day picked up on HOW it was being used to "blow people's minds"....

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now Now. Sonny Barger parlayed his grade eight education into running one of the worlds most successfull international pharmaceutical 'syndicates', while forbidding his senior staff & bodyguards from downing crystal meth under threat of summary execution. ( whiskey , loot, hot bikes & Skank hos were both allowed & indulged in).( Barger noew says he regrets the cigs & Cocaine- but nothing else)

Der Furher by 1945 was mainlining Liquid Meth for breakfast, thanks to Dr. Morrel...
there IS a difference...
I ....think...