Why the Waffen-SS
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ROLAND1369
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
I think that the answer to the basic question of "why the SS" is best summed up by a quote from Chairman Mao. "The army which makes a revolution must be immediately eliminated and replaced by one which will support the revolution." this holds true in most revolts which I have witnessed. I would say that the Waffen SS was formed for just such an eventuality in case the Germans had won the war.
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offizier1916
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
people here are trying to generalize the motives why some1 might join the wss. motives were not a consistent, undifferentiated mass. like i already stated, ive read some biographies about simple soldiers and talked to veterans. not a single one joined the wss because he was an antisemite beast, spending the day thinking about how to kill civilians. Motives of veterans i talked to/read about were:
1. rumours, that the wss was better equipped, especially better winter equippment and more food
2. friends were joining
3. via joining the wss getting the chance to become a gouvernment official
4. young proud german, interested in technology. propaganda made the w-ss as something progressive, forward-looking and elite.
5. the wss was the counterpart of the old, incrusted wehrmacht with its personal vanities and professional snobbery . in the wss everyone had the chance to become an officer, regardless of his social background, based only on his merits on the front front etc. Abitur was not necessarily an admission requirement.
note, that all people i read about and talked to came from rural areas and were rural residents.
1. rumours, that the wss was better equipped, especially better winter equippment and more food
2. friends were joining
3. via joining the wss getting the chance to become a gouvernment official
4. young proud german, interested in technology. propaganda made the w-ss as something progressive, forward-looking and elite.
5. the wss was the counterpart of the old, incrusted wehrmacht with its personal vanities and professional snobbery . in the wss everyone had the chance to become an officer, regardless of his social background, based only on his merits on the front front etc. Abitur was not necessarily an admission requirement.
note, that all people i read about and talked to came from rural areas and were rural residents.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Hi offizier1916,
You write, probably with high accuracy, "not a single one joined the W-SS because he was an anti-semite beast".
Yet all of them joined an organization that was actively engaged in anti-semitic beastliness, when they could have joined the Wehrmacht. The SS was a continuum and there was no clear break between the W-SS and its activities and those of the wider SS. Thousands of men were transferred from Auschwitz and other camps directly into W-SS units, usually Totenkopf. A lesser number of recovered wounded were transferred back. All W-SS divisions, apart from a couple of very late war creations, contained officers who are known to have served in the camps. One third of the Einsatzgruppen members in 1941 were from the W-SS. A W-SS training battalion (from Wiking?) was engaged in suppressing the Warsaw Ghetto, and so on.
Interestingly, the Nuremberg process recognized this differentiation as, while it declared the SS as a whole a criminal organization, mere membership of the W-SS was not considered a crime.
The idea that the W-SS was technologically progressive is untrue. Any young German into technology would probably have joined the air force or navy, if that was his main motivation. The W-SS wasn't even more technologically-focused than the Army, as all its equipment had been developed by the Army in the first place.
Your characterization of the "incrusted Wehrmacht" is largely a fiction. It expanded from 100,000 men when Hitler came to power to eventually enlist nearly 20 million! There was massive opportunity within the Wehrmacht for promotion on merit "regardless of social background, based only on his merits on the front, etc.," during this period.
Similarly, the idea that the W-SS was some sort of egalitarian paradise is also largely a fiction. Its officer corps was overwhelmingly middle class, like the Army.
The people who genuinely volunteered for the W-SS were probably a small minority of its eventual 750,000-odd members. The earlier joiners were often quite probably incompatible with the highly professional, highly competitive and selective ethos of the 100,000-man Reichswehr, which was largely led by men who had proved themselves through the severe natural selection of WWI, such as Rommel. This made promotion difficult, but for good reason. The SS alternative offered a politicized route to accelerated promotion without the expectation of front-line combat in its ranks. As their military obligations remained to the Army until 1938, those joining the SS earlier cannot have done so in the expectation of proving themselves in battle with it.
Cheers,
Sid.
You write, probably with high accuracy, "not a single one joined the W-SS because he was an anti-semite beast".
Yet all of them joined an organization that was actively engaged in anti-semitic beastliness, when they could have joined the Wehrmacht. The SS was a continuum and there was no clear break between the W-SS and its activities and those of the wider SS. Thousands of men were transferred from Auschwitz and other camps directly into W-SS units, usually Totenkopf. A lesser number of recovered wounded were transferred back. All W-SS divisions, apart from a couple of very late war creations, contained officers who are known to have served in the camps. One third of the Einsatzgruppen members in 1941 were from the W-SS. A W-SS training battalion (from Wiking?) was engaged in suppressing the Warsaw Ghetto, and so on.
Interestingly, the Nuremberg process recognized this differentiation as, while it declared the SS as a whole a criminal organization, mere membership of the W-SS was not considered a crime.
The idea that the W-SS was technologically progressive is untrue. Any young German into technology would probably have joined the air force or navy, if that was his main motivation. The W-SS wasn't even more technologically-focused than the Army, as all its equipment had been developed by the Army in the first place.
Your characterization of the "incrusted Wehrmacht" is largely a fiction. It expanded from 100,000 men when Hitler came to power to eventually enlist nearly 20 million! There was massive opportunity within the Wehrmacht for promotion on merit "regardless of social background, based only on his merits on the front, etc.," during this period.
Similarly, the idea that the W-SS was some sort of egalitarian paradise is also largely a fiction. Its officer corps was overwhelmingly middle class, like the Army.
The people who genuinely volunteered for the W-SS were probably a small minority of its eventual 750,000-odd members. The earlier joiners were often quite probably incompatible with the highly professional, highly competitive and selective ethos of the 100,000-man Reichswehr, which was largely led by men who had proved themselves through the severe natural selection of WWI, such as Rommel. This made promotion difficult, but for good reason. The SS alternative offered a politicized route to accelerated promotion without the expectation of front-line combat in its ranks. As their military obligations remained to the Army until 1938, those joining the SS earlier cannot have done so in the expectation of proving themselves in battle with it.
Cheers,
Sid.
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offizier1916
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
@ Guttridge,
you have to read carefully. I did not write, that these motives for joining the waffen ss were objectively right. I wrote, that these were the - subjective - reasons for people joining the waffen ss. Based on my experience with veterans ( Frundsberg and GvB Veterans) and reading biographies. Just to emphasize that motives were not a consistent, undifferentiated mass. There was a big diservification. To reduce the motive to: antesimite, anti-slavic killing machine is just a simplyfication to confirm your own prejudices
you have to read carefully. I did not write, that these motives for joining the waffen ss were objectively right. I wrote, that these were the - subjective - reasons for people joining the waffen ss. Based on my experience with veterans ( Frundsberg and GvB Veterans) and reading biographies. Just to emphasize that motives were not a consistent, undifferentiated mass. There was a big diservification. To reduce the motive to: antesimite, anti-slavic killing machine is just a simplyfication to confirm your own prejudices
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Ironmachine
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Strictly speaking, these were not the -subjective- reasons they had to join the Waffen SS, but the reasons they claim they had to join the Waffen SS. It could be quite a significant difference. Those experiences with veterans and those biographies, being after-WWII "products", could be highly "sanitized versions" of the facts. Or not; in any case, one has to be careful with that kind of "evidence".offizier191 wrote:@ Guttridge,Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi offizier1916,
You write, probably with high accuracy, "not a single one joined the W-SS because he was an anti-semite beast".
[...]
you have to read carefully. I did not write, that these motives for joining the waffen ss were objectively right. I wrote, that these were the - subjective - reasons for people joining the waffen ss. Based on my experience with veterans ( Frundsberg and GvB Veterans) and reading biographies. Just to emphasize that motives were not a consistent, undifferentiated mass. There was a big diservification. To reduce the motive to: antesimite, anti-slavic killing machine is just a simplyfication to confirm your own prejudices
Regards.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Hi offizier1916,
Indeed, you are right, but just as it is wrong to assume that all W-SS men were primarily motivated by anti-semitism, it is also wrong to assume that they all joined out of the purest of motives in complete ignorance of the prevailing ethos of the W-SS. Most of them had a measure of choice as to whether to join the W-SS or the Wehrmacht. The overwhelming majority of Reich Germans (at least 97%) opted for the latter.
Cheers,
Sid.
Indeed, you are right, but just as it is wrong to assume that all W-SS men were primarily motivated by anti-semitism, it is also wrong to assume that they all joined out of the purest of motives in complete ignorance of the prevailing ethos of the W-SS. Most of them had a measure of choice as to whether to join the W-SS or the Wehrmacht. The overwhelming majority of Reich Germans (at least 97%) opted for the latter.
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
What The Nuremberg Tribunal had to say about the General Staff and High Command of the WehrmachtSid Guttridge wrote: ↑29 Dec 2018, 11:25Hi offizier1916,
Indeed, you are right, but just as it is wrong to assume that all W-SS men were primarily motivated by anti-semitism, it is also wrong to assume that they all joined out of the purest of motives in complete ignorance of the prevailing ethos of the W-SS. Most of them had a measure of choice as to whether to join the W-SS or the Wehrmacht. The overwhelming majority of Reich Germans (at least 97%) opted for the latter.
Cheers,
Sid.
They have been responsible in large measure for the miseries and suffering that have fallen on millions of men, women and children. They have been a disgrace to the honourable profession of arms. Without their military guidance the aggressive ambitions of Hitler and his fellow Nazis would have been academic and sterile. Although they were not a group falling within the words of the Charter they were certainly a ruthless military caste. The contemporary German militarism flourished briefly with its recent ally, National Socialism, as well as or better than it had in the generations of the past.
Many of these men have made a mockery of the soldier's oath of obedience to military orders. When it suits their defence they say they had to obey; when confronted with Hitler's brutal crimes, which are shown to have been within their general knowledge, they say they disobeyed. The truth is they actively participated in all these crimes, or sat silent and acquiescent, witnessing the commission of crimes on a scale larger and more shocking than the world has ever had the misfortune to know.
So stop pretending the Wehrmacht was any better than Waffen-SS as a career ladder !
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Hi j keenan,
I didn't! Please re-read my post.
Sid.
I didn't! Please re-read my post.
Sid.
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offizier1916
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
deleted
Last edited by offizier1916 on 30 Jan 2019, 01:08, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
^
terrific post, although after listening to part of it is not clear what "anti-aircraft unit" he was part of.
He talks about being in France, and then sent to the Ukraine in time for the Zhitomir-Berdichev offensive (Christmas day, 1943). Part of a Luftwaffe Flak unit or one of the Flak Korps in the area? (eg. the 10th?)
terrific post, although after listening to part of it is not clear what "anti-aircraft unit" he was part of.
He talks about being in France, and then sent to the Ukraine in time for the Zhitomir-Berdichev offensive (Christmas day, 1943). Part of a Luftwaffe Flak unit or one of the Flak Korps in the area? (eg. the 10th?)
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offizier1916
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS
edit1: as he was talking about the discovering of the slaughtered 20 men of his unit. He mentioned that the commanding Oberleutnant gave the order to burn down the houses as a sanction. According to him the occupants of the houses were then "taken away". I think he knows that "taken away" was generally an euphemism for shooting them.
edit2: the part as he was stationed 10KM from the deathcamp fo Majdanek is highly dubios. Did I understand it correctly, that he did not knew and hear about the deathcamp, while only stationed 10 KM from the deaht camp in 1944 as a SS Soldier? I dont believe this.
edit3: his Statements regarding the Waffen-SS as sort of an avantagarde of a pan-european Army is obviously false. He seems genuinely believing this, but you really have to be indoctrinated to be that simple-minded
edit4: his Statements regarding the Einsatzgruppen are pure denying of Holocaust. He said that the Einsatzgruppen were some kind of "elite" commando against Partisans and NOT for extermination of the jews. Thats plain and simple denying of the Holocaust, and the systematic Extermination of jews and slavic People by the SS.
so RIGHT now im at Minute 40 of the interview and i have to conlcude: this is a bullshit neo-nazi video. the message of it is clear: denying the Holocaust, and White washing german war crimes.
edit2: the part as he was stationed 10KM from the deathcamp fo Majdanek is highly dubios. Did I understand it correctly, that he did not knew and hear about the deathcamp, while only stationed 10 KM from the deaht camp in 1944 as a SS Soldier? I dont believe this.
edit3: his Statements regarding the Waffen-SS as sort of an avantagarde of a pan-european Army is obviously false. He seems genuinely believing this, but you really have to be indoctrinated to be that simple-minded
edit4: his Statements regarding the Einsatzgruppen are pure denying of Holocaust. He said that the Einsatzgruppen were some kind of "elite" commando against Partisans and NOT for extermination of the jews. Thats plain and simple denying of the Holocaust, and the systematic Extermination of jews and slavic People by the SS.
so RIGHT now im at Minute 40 of the interview and i have to conlcude: this is a bullshit neo-nazi video. the message of it is clear: denying the Holocaust, and White washing german war crimes.
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
In watching his mannerisms and details in the descriptions he doesn't look like a liar- basically he truly believes these things. Perhaps old school nazi and not neo-nazi. However, he and his interviewer's choice of certain topics (of which shifted away from his service) seems rather deliberate and the insight from the interview grew less and less as it focused on these generalized opinions, which could be easily influenced from pro-Wehrmacht/SS talking points and biases rather than personal experience.
I liked his description of the POW camps. But besides that, the majority of his speaking is about partisans, holocaust denial and quite little about the Waffen SS, of which it sounds like he was only a part of briefly. After shell shocked, he was sent to the Westwall in a replacement battalion and found himself with 10.SS "F" in Arnhelm, where he was captured shortly afterwards.
I liked his description of the POW camps. But besides that, the majority of his speaking is about partisans, holocaust denial and quite little about the Waffen SS, of which it sounds like he was only a part of briefly. After shell shocked, he was sent to the Westwall in a replacement battalion and found himself with 10.SS "F" in Arnhelm, where he was captured shortly afterwards.
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
I looked at this Axishistory thread and copied a list of the most highly decorated German panzer formations in WW2 (as measured with RK/GCG) in the 25 plus / 90 plus range. German panzer formations overall got much higher awards than infantry formations.
That's 31 divisions that were highly decorated. The four Waffen SS origin units were more decorated than average but not as much as commonly believed.
viewto...+reich#p957322
Panzer-Division , Heer
#1 4. Pz.Div : 84 KC (73 RK + 10 EL + 1 SW) [p 5 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 167 , DKiS : 8 , NKiG : 38 , EBS : 78 , AU : 14 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 2 , RK KVKmS : 1]
#2 9. Pz.Div : 61 KC (56 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 6 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 130 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 53 , AU : 19 , AU (Fl) : 3]
#3 5. Pz.Div : 57 KC (50 RK + 6 EL + 1 SW) [p 35]
[DKiG : 152 , DKiS : 2 , EBS : 24 , AU : 4 , AU (Fl) : 1 , RK KVKmS : 1]
#4 12. Pz.Div : 54 KC (48 RK + 6 EL) [p 8]
[DKiG : 131 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 42 , AU : 12 , AU (Fl) : 3 , AU (Fl) unit : 2 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 1]
14. Pz.Div : 54 KC (48 RK + 5 EL + 1 SW) [p 27]
[DKiG : 149 , DKiS : 9 , NKiG : 5 , EBS : 44 , AU : 16 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 6 , RK KVKmS : 2 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 1]
#6 11. Pz.Div : 52 KC (45 RK + 4 EL + 3 SW) [p 8 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 140 , DKiS : 6 , NKiG : 28 , EBS : 20 , AU : 8 , AU (Fl) : 3 , RK KVKmS : 1]
#7 6. Pz.Div : 50 KC (45 RK + 5 EL) [p 8 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 124 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 28 , AU : 15]
#8 3. Pz.Div : 47 KC (42 RK + 5 EL) [p 29 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 141 , DKiS : 12 , EBS : 35 , AU : 16 , RK KVKmS : 1]
7. Pz.Div : 47 KC (36 RK + 6 EL + 3 SW + 2 Br) [p 8 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 116 , DKiS : 8 , NKiG : 2 , EBS : 35 , AU : 12 , AU unit : 1 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 2]
24. Pz.Div : 47 KC (42 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 12 , incl 6 unoff]
[DKiG : 135 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 13 , EBS : 39 , AU : 14 , AU (Fl) : 3 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 1]
#11 19. Pz.Div : 45 KC (40 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 9 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 118 , DKiS : 4 , NKiG : 9 , EBS : 29 , AU : 15]
#12 13. Pz.Div : 41 KC (35 RK + 5 EL + 1 SW) [p 36]
[DKiG : 142 , DKiS : 1 , NKiG : 8 , EBS : 24 , AU : 6 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 3 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 2]
#13 1. Pz.Div : 36 KC (31 RK + 5 EL) [p 44]
[DKiG : 108 , DKiS : 7 , NKiG : 4 , EBS : 30 , AU : 11]
#14 16. Pz.Div : 35 KC (31 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW) [p 11]
[DKiG : 158 , DKiS : 4 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 25 , AU : 1 , AU (Fl) : 3 , AU (Fl) unit : 3]
20. Pz.Div : 35 KC (31 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW) [p 35]
[DKiG : 108 , DKiS : 6 , NKiG : 2 , EBS : 19 , AU : 6]
#16 2. Pz.Div : 33 KC (32 RK + 1 EL) [p 9 , incl 2 unoff]
[DKiG : 92 , EBS : 32 , AU : 8]
#17 8. Pz.Div : 31 KC (29 RK + 2 EL) [p 24]
[DKiG : 105 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 10 , EBS : 28 , AU : 18]
23. Pz.Div : 31 KC (29 RK + 2 EL) [p 30 , incl 2 unoff]
[DKiG : 121 , DKiS : 5 , NKiG : 11 , EBS : 27 , AU : 15 , AU (Fl) : 6 , AU (Fl) unit : 1 , RK KVKmS : 1]
#19 17. Pz.Div : 27 KC (25 RK + 2 EL) [p 33]
[DKiG : 164 , NKiG : 21 , EBS : 38 , AU : 11 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 1]
Panzer-Division , Waffen-SS
#1 2. SS-Pz.Div „Das Reich“ : 90 KC (72 RK + 15 EL + 3 SW) [p 42 , incl 15 unoff]
[DKiG : 156 , DKiS : 12 , NKiG : 27 , EBS : 33 , AU : 12 , AU (Fl) : 2 , RK KVKmS : 2]
#2 5. SS-Pz.Div "Wiking" : 67 KC (55 RK + 8 EL + 3 SW + 1 Br) [p 42 , incl 4 unoff ]
[DKiG : 180 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 20 , EBS : 17 , AU : 4 , RK KVKmS : 1 , FiOCrL, 1st Cl : 2]
#3 1. SS-Pz.Div „LSSAH“ : 65 KC (52 RK + 10 EL + 3 SW) [p 48 , incl 1 unoff ]
[DKiG : 101 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 16 , EBS : 14 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 2]
#4 3. SS-Pz.Div "Totenkopf" : 55 KC (46 RK + 8 EL + 1 SW) [p 41]
[DKiG : 125 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 33 , EBS : 22 , AU : 4 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 7]
Panzergrenadier-Division , Heer
#1 Pz.Gren.Div „Großdeutschland“ [Rgt to Div] : 59 KC (49 RK + 8 EL + 2 SW) [p 19 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG: 218 ; DKiS: 7 , NKiG: 3 ; EBS: 63 , AU : 28 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 2]
#2 20. PGD/ID (mot) : 46 KC (41 RK + 5 EL) [p 28]
[DKiG : 125 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 8 , EBS : 32 , AU : 10 , AU (Fl) : 1]
#3 16. PGD/ID(mot) : 32 KC (26 RK + 5 EL + 1 SW) [p 11]
[DKiG : 113 , DKiS : 1 , NKiG : 12 , EBS : 15 , AU : 4 , AU unit : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 4]
#4 3. PGD/ID(mot) : 31 KC (28 RK + 3 EL) [p 43]
[DKiG : 126 , DKiS : 4 , EBS : 28 , RK KVK : 1 , AU : 7 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 1]
#5 25. PGD/ID (mot) : 29 KC (26 RK + 3 EL) [p 47]
[DKiG : 110 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 44 , AU : 6 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 1]
29. PGD/ID(mot) : 29 KC (26 RK + 2 EL + 1 SW) [p 29]
[DKiG : 90 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 5 , EBS : 14 , AU : 4 , AU unit : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 7]
#7 18. PGD/ID(mot) : 27 KC [p 47 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 92 , NKiG : 2 , EBS : 31 , AU : 9 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 6]
#8 10. PGD/ID(mot) : 23 KC (21 RK + 2 EL) [p 47]
[DKiG : 90 , DKiS : 1 , EBS : 9 , AU : 3]
And using a somewhat arbitrary cut-off of 200 high awards to find the "top outlier" divisions, the ones are these:
4. Pz.Div : 84 KC (73 RK + 10 EL + 1 SW) [p 5 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 167 , DKiS : 8 , NKiG : 38 , EBS : 78 , AU : 14 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 2 , RK KVKmS : 1]
5. Pz.Div : 57 KC (50 RK + 6 EL + 1 SW) [p 35]
[DKiG : 152 , DKiS : 2 , EBS : 24 , AU : 4 , AU (Fl) : 1 , RK KVKmS : 1]
14. Pz.Div : 54 KC (48 RK + 5 EL + 1 SW) [p 27]
[DKiG : 149 , DKiS : 9 , NKiG : 5 , EBS : 44 , AU : 16 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 6 , RK KVKmS : 2 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 1]
Panzer-Division , Waffen-SS
#1 2. SS-Pz.Div „Das Reich“ : 90 KC (72 RK + 15 EL + 3 SW) [p 42 , incl 15 unoff]
[DKiG : 156 , DKiS : 12 , NKiG : 27 , EBS : 33 , AU : 12 , AU (Fl) : 2 , RK KVKmS : 2]
#2 5. SS-Pz.Div "Wiking" : 67 KC (55 RK + 8 EL + 3 SW + 1 Br) [p 42 , incl 4 unoff ]
[DKiG : 180 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 20 , EBS : 17 , AU : 4 , RK KVKmS : 1 , FiOCrL, 1st Cl : 2]
Panzergrenadier-Division , Heer
#1 Pz.Gren.Div „Großdeutschland“ [Rgt to Div] : 59 KC (49 RK + 8 EL + 2 SW) [p 19 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG: 218 ; DKiS: 7 , NKiG: 3 ; EBS: 63 , AU : 28 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 2]
The most highly decorated regiments of the German Army:
"Regiment , overall
#1 Inf./Jäg.Rgt 49 / 28. ID/Jäg.Div : 26 KC (21 RK + 5 EL) [p 3]
#2 Pz.Rgt 35 / 4. PD : 21 KC (19 RK + 2 EL) [p 3 , incl 1 unoff ]
SS-Pz.Rgt 1 „LSSAH“ : 21 KC (17 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW) [p 3]
SS-PGR 4 “DF” : 21 KC (16 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 6 , incl 4 unoff]
#5 Schtz./Inf.(mot)/Pz.Gren.Rgt 25 / 12. PD : 20 KC (18 RK + 2 EL) [p 6]
SS-Pz.Rgt 2 "Das Reich" : 20 KC (18 RK + 2 EL) [p 3 , incl 1 unoff]
SS-PGR 9 „Germania“ : 20 KC (17 RK + 2 EL + 1 SW) [p 6 , incl 1 unoff ]"
"Panzer-Regiment , overall :
#1 Pz.Rgt 35 / 4. PD : 21 KC (19 RK + 2 EL) [incl 1 unoff ]
SS-Pz.Rgt 1 “LSSAH” : 21 KC (17 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW)
#3 SS-Pz.Rgt 2 “Das Reich” : 20 KC (18 RK + 2 EL) [incl 1 unoff ]
Panzer-Regiment , Heer :
#1 Pz.Rgt 35 / 4. PD : 21 KC [as above]
#2 Pz.Rgt 36 / 4.,14. PD : 18 KC (17 RK + 1 EL)
Panzergrenadier-Regiment , overall :
#1 SS-PGR 4 “DF” : 21 KC (16 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [incl 4 unoff]
SS-PGR 9 „Germania“ : 20 KC (17 RK + 2 EL + 1 SW) [incl 1 unoff ]
PGR 25 / 12. PD : 20 KC (18 RK + 2 EL)
#4 PGR 33 / 4. PD : 19 KC (17 RK + 2 EL)
Panzergrenadier-Regiment , Waffen-SS :
#1 SS-PGR 4 “DF” : 21 KC (16 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [incl 4 unoff]
#2 SS-PGR 9 „Germania“ : 20 KC (17 RK + 2 EL + 1 SW) [incl 1 unoff ]
#3 SS-PGR 3 "Deutschland" : 18 KC (14 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW) [incl 4 unoff ]
#4 SS-PGR 5 „Totenkopf“ : 14 KC (13 RK + 1 EL)
Panzergrenadier- / Waffen-Grenadier - Division , Waffen-SS
#1 11. SS-Frw-PGD "Nordland" : 32 KC (27 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 10 , incl 5 unoff ]
[DKiG : 30 , DKiS : 4 , NKiG : 4 , EBS : 12 , AU : 1]
#2 23. SS-Frw-PGD "Nederland" : 23 KC (20 RK + 3 EL) [p 14 , incl 2 unoff]
[DKiG : 30 , DKiS : 1 , EBS : 2]
With Nordland/Nederland what stands out is the unusually high ratio of KC to DkiG-and also compared to the relatively short combat experience of the units. Looks like award inflation for propaganda purposes as these were the units that held the "Germanic" SS volunteers. Wiking may also have been impacted.
Overall, there were two Waffen SS formations that had exceptionally high awards (Wiking and Das Reich) while LAH and TK were more in the ordinary range for a top-awarded Panzer division. By measuring RKs alone, the 4 "classic" SS divisions were in the top 10 though. (the RK having a higher profile than the GCG)
That's 31 divisions that were highly decorated. The four Waffen SS origin units were more decorated than average but not as much as commonly believed.
viewto...+reich#p957322
Panzer-Division , Heer
#1 4. Pz.Div : 84 KC (73 RK + 10 EL + 1 SW) [p 5 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 167 , DKiS : 8 , NKiG : 38 , EBS : 78 , AU : 14 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 2 , RK KVKmS : 1]
#2 9. Pz.Div : 61 KC (56 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 6 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 130 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 53 , AU : 19 , AU (Fl) : 3]
#3 5. Pz.Div : 57 KC (50 RK + 6 EL + 1 SW) [p 35]
[DKiG : 152 , DKiS : 2 , EBS : 24 , AU : 4 , AU (Fl) : 1 , RK KVKmS : 1]
#4 12. Pz.Div : 54 KC (48 RK + 6 EL) [p 8]
[DKiG : 131 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 42 , AU : 12 , AU (Fl) : 3 , AU (Fl) unit : 2 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 1]
14. Pz.Div : 54 KC (48 RK + 5 EL + 1 SW) [p 27]
[DKiG : 149 , DKiS : 9 , NKiG : 5 , EBS : 44 , AU : 16 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 6 , RK KVKmS : 2 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 1]
#6 11. Pz.Div : 52 KC (45 RK + 4 EL + 3 SW) [p 8 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 140 , DKiS : 6 , NKiG : 28 , EBS : 20 , AU : 8 , AU (Fl) : 3 , RK KVKmS : 1]
#7 6. Pz.Div : 50 KC (45 RK + 5 EL) [p 8 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 124 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 28 , AU : 15]
#8 3. Pz.Div : 47 KC (42 RK + 5 EL) [p 29 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 141 , DKiS : 12 , EBS : 35 , AU : 16 , RK KVKmS : 1]
7. Pz.Div : 47 KC (36 RK + 6 EL + 3 SW + 2 Br) [p 8 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 116 , DKiS : 8 , NKiG : 2 , EBS : 35 , AU : 12 , AU unit : 1 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 2]
24. Pz.Div : 47 KC (42 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 12 , incl 6 unoff]
[DKiG : 135 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 13 , EBS : 39 , AU : 14 , AU (Fl) : 3 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 1]
#11 19. Pz.Div : 45 KC (40 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 9 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 118 , DKiS : 4 , NKiG : 9 , EBS : 29 , AU : 15]
#12 13. Pz.Div : 41 KC (35 RK + 5 EL + 1 SW) [p 36]
[DKiG : 142 , DKiS : 1 , NKiG : 8 , EBS : 24 , AU : 6 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 3 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 2]
#13 1. Pz.Div : 36 KC (31 RK + 5 EL) [p 44]
[DKiG : 108 , DKiS : 7 , NKiG : 4 , EBS : 30 , AU : 11]
#14 16. Pz.Div : 35 KC (31 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW) [p 11]
[DKiG : 158 , DKiS : 4 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 25 , AU : 1 , AU (Fl) : 3 , AU (Fl) unit : 3]
20. Pz.Div : 35 KC (31 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW) [p 35]
[DKiG : 108 , DKiS : 6 , NKiG : 2 , EBS : 19 , AU : 6]
#16 2. Pz.Div : 33 KC (32 RK + 1 EL) [p 9 , incl 2 unoff]
[DKiG : 92 , EBS : 32 , AU : 8]
#17 8. Pz.Div : 31 KC (29 RK + 2 EL) [p 24]
[DKiG : 105 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 10 , EBS : 28 , AU : 18]
23. Pz.Div : 31 KC (29 RK + 2 EL) [p 30 , incl 2 unoff]
[DKiG : 121 , DKiS : 5 , NKiG : 11 , EBS : 27 , AU : 15 , AU (Fl) : 6 , AU (Fl) unit : 1 , RK KVKmS : 1]
#19 17. Pz.Div : 27 KC (25 RK + 2 EL) [p 33]
[DKiG : 164 , NKiG : 21 , EBS : 38 , AU : 11 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 1]
Panzer-Division , Waffen-SS
#1 2. SS-Pz.Div „Das Reich“ : 90 KC (72 RK + 15 EL + 3 SW) [p 42 , incl 15 unoff]
[DKiG : 156 , DKiS : 12 , NKiG : 27 , EBS : 33 , AU : 12 , AU (Fl) : 2 , RK KVKmS : 2]
#2 5. SS-Pz.Div "Wiking" : 67 KC (55 RK + 8 EL + 3 SW + 1 Br) [p 42 , incl 4 unoff ]
[DKiG : 180 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 20 , EBS : 17 , AU : 4 , RK KVKmS : 1 , FiOCrL, 1st Cl : 2]
#3 1. SS-Pz.Div „LSSAH“ : 65 KC (52 RK + 10 EL + 3 SW) [p 48 , incl 1 unoff ]
[DKiG : 101 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 16 , EBS : 14 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 2]
#4 3. SS-Pz.Div "Totenkopf" : 55 KC (46 RK + 8 EL + 1 SW) [p 41]
[DKiG : 125 , DKiS : 2 , NKiG : 33 , EBS : 22 , AU : 4 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 7]
Panzergrenadier-Division , Heer
#1 Pz.Gren.Div „Großdeutschland“ [Rgt to Div] : 59 KC (49 RK + 8 EL + 2 SW) [p 19 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG: 218 ; DKiS: 7 , NKiG: 3 ; EBS: 63 , AU : 28 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 2]
#2 20. PGD/ID (mot) : 46 KC (41 RK + 5 EL) [p 28]
[DKiG : 125 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 8 , EBS : 32 , AU : 10 , AU (Fl) : 1]
#3 16. PGD/ID(mot) : 32 KC (26 RK + 5 EL + 1 SW) [p 11]
[DKiG : 113 , DKiS : 1 , NKiG : 12 , EBS : 15 , AU : 4 , AU unit : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 4]
#4 3. PGD/ID(mot) : 31 KC (28 RK + 3 EL) [p 43]
[DKiG : 126 , DKiS : 4 , EBS : 28 , RK KVK : 1 , AU : 7 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 1]
#5 25. PGD/ID (mot) : 29 KC (26 RK + 3 EL) [p 47]
[DKiG : 110 , NKiG : 1 , EBS : 44 , AU : 6 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 1]
29. PGD/ID(mot) : 29 KC (26 RK + 2 EL + 1 SW) [p 29]
[DKiG : 90 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 5 , EBS : 14 , AU : 4 , AU unit : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 7]
#7 18. PGD/ID(mot) : 27 KC [p 47 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 92 , NKiG : 2 , EBS : 31 , AU : 9 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 6]
#8 10. PGD/ID(mot) : 23 KC (21 RK + 2 EL) [p 47]
[DKiG : 90 , DKiS : 1 , EBS : 9 , AU : 3]
And using a somewhat arbitrary cut-off of 200 high awards to find the "top outlier" divisions, the ones are these:
4. Pz.Div : 84 KC (73 RK + 10 EL + 1 SW) [p 5 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG : 167 , DKiS : 8 , NKiG : 38 , EBS : 78 , AU : 14 , AU (Fl) : 2 , AU (Fl) unit : 2 , RK KVKmS : 1]
5. Pz.Div : 57 KC (50 RK + 6 EL + 1 SW) [p 35]
[DKiG : 152 , DKiS : 2 , EBS : 24 , AU : 4 , AU (Fl) : 1 , RK KVKmS : 1]
14. Pz.Div : 54 KC (48 RK + 5 EL + 1 SW) [p 27]
[DKiG : 149 , DKiS : 9 , NKiG : 5 , EBS : 44 , AU : 16 , AU (Fl) : 1 , AU (Fl) unit : 6 , RK KVKmS : 2 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 1]
Panzer-Division , Waffen-SS
#1 2. SS-Pz.Div „Das Reich“ : 90 KC (72 RK + 15 EL + 3 SW) [p 42 , incl 15 unoff]
[DKiG : 156 , DKiS : 12 , NKiG : 27 , EBS : 33 , AU : 12 , AU (Fl) : 2 , RK KVKmS : 2]
#2 5. SS-Pz.Div "Wiking" : 67 KC (55 RK + 8 EL + 3 SW + 1 Br) [p 42 , incl 4 unoff ]
[DKiG : 180 , DKiS : 3 , NKiG : 20 , EBS : 17 , AU : 4 , RK KVKmS : 1 , FiOCrL, 1st Cl : 2]
Panzergrenadier-Division , Heer
#1 Pz.Gren.Div „Großdeutschland“ [Rgt to Div] : 59 KC (49 RK + 8 EL + 2 SW) [p 19 , incl 1 unoff]
[DKiG: 218 ; DKiS: 7 , NKiG: 3 ; EBS: 63 , AU : 28 , Michael the Brave, 3rd Cl : 2]
The most highly decorated regiments of the German Army:
"Regiment , overall
#1 Inf./Jäg.Rgt 49 / 28. ID/Jäg.Div : 26 KC (21 RK + 5 EL) [p 3]
#2 Pz.Rgt 35 / 4. PD : 21 KC (19 RK + 2 EL) [p 3 , incl 1 unoff ]
SS-Pz.Rgt 1 „LSSAH“ : 21 KC (17 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW) [p 3]
SS-PGR 4 “DF” : 21 KC (16 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 6 , incl 4 unoff]
#5 Schtz./Inf.(mot)/Pz.Gren.Rgt 25 / 12. PD : 20 KC (18 RK + 2 EL) [p 6]
SS-Pz.Rgt 2 "Das Reich" : 20 KC (18 RK + 2 EL) [p 3 , incl 1 unoff]
SS-PGR 9 „Germania“ : 20 KC (17 RK + 2 EL + 1 SW) [p 6 , incl 1 unoff ]"
"Panzer-Regiment , overall :
#1 Pz.Rgt 35 / 4. PD : 21 KC (19 RK + 2 EL) [incl 1 unoff ]
SS-Pz.Rgt 1 “LSSAH” : 21 KC (17 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW)
#3 SS-Pz.Rgt 2 “Das Reich” : 20 KC (18 RK + 2 EL) [incl 1 unoff ]
Panzer-Regiment , Heer :
#1 Pz.Rgt 35 / 4. PD : 21 KC [as above]
#2 Pz.Rgt 36 / 4.,14. PD : 18 KC (17 RK + 1 EL)
Panzergrenadier-Regiment , overall :
#1 SS-PGR 4 “DF” : 21 KC (16 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [incl 4 unoff]
SS-PGR 9 „Germania“ : 20 KC (17 RK + 2 EL + 1 SW) [incl 1 unoff ]
PGR 25 / 12. PD : 20 KC (18 RK + 2 EL)
#4 PGR 33 / 4. PD : 19 KC (17 RK + 2 EL)
Panzergrenadier-Regiment , Waffen-SS :
#1 SS-PGR 4 “DF” : 21 KC (16 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [incl 4 unoff]
#2 SS-PGR 9 „Germania“ : 20 KC (17 RK + 2 EL + 1 SW) [incl 1 unoff ]
#3 SS-PGR 3 "Deutschland" : 18 KC (14 RK + 3 EL + 1 SW) [incl 4 unoff ]
#4 SS-PGR 5 „Totenkopf“ : 14 KC (13 RK + 1 EL)
Panzergrenadier- / Waffen-Grenadier - Division , Waffen-SS
#1 11. SS-Frw-PGD "Nordland" : 32 KC (27 RK + 4 EL + 1 SW) [p 10 , incl 5 unoff ]
[DKiG : 30 , DKiS : 4 , NKiG : 4 , EBS : 12 , AU : 1]
#2 23. SS-Frw-PGD "Nederland" : 23 KC (20 RK + 3 EL) [p 14 , incl 2 unoff]
[DKiG : 30 , DKiS : 1 , EBS : 2]
With Nordland/Nederland what stands out is the unusually high ratio of KC to DkiG-and also compared to the relatively short combat experience of the units. Looks like award inflation for propaganda purposes as these were the units that held the "Germanic" SS volunteers. Wiking may also have been impacted.
Overall, there were two Waffen SS formations that had exceptionally high awards (Wiking and Das Reich) while LAH and TK were more in the ordinary range for a top-awarded Panzer division. By measuring RKs alone, the 4 "classic" SS divisions were in the top 10 though. (the RK having a higher profile than the GCG)
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
-Also, 3.SS "Totenkopf" only had 4 RK's awarded to its Panzer regiment! Despite it's vast service. Yerger's study on it has the same figure.
-5.SS Panzer Regiment with 14 RK's
-5.SS Panzer Regiment with 14 RK's
-
Sid Guttridge
- Member
- Posts: 10162
- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: Why the Waffen-SS
Hi Cult Icon,
Interesting stuff,
However, the problem with such awards is that the number put forward for recognition depends on the culture of the unit, which changes through time and with commanders. Sometimes strict criteria apply, but at other times a looser regime reigns.
I would note that the average of KCs for the four W-SS panzer divisions is higher than for all except one of the army's nineteen divisions illustrated.
Cheers,
Sid.
Interesting stuff,
However, the problem with such awards is that the number put forward for recognition depends on the culture of the unit, which changes through time and with commanders. Sometimes strict criteria apply, but at other times a looser regime reigns.
I would note that the average of KCs for the four W-SS panzer divisions is higher than for all except one of the army's nineteen divisions illustrated.
Cheers,
Sid.