Why the Waffen-SS

[Jan-Hendrik]

Simply: take a look on the combat strength of both divisions at that timeframe.

Jan-Hendrik

[ML59]

Hi ML59,

I think you are absolutely right on just about every point.

Cheers,

Sid

Thank you, appreciate.

[ML59]

A citation from "Hitler's Death Head Division": Max Simon proclaimed in an order ‘These Russians are bandits, whipped into fanatical
frenzy by the Bolshevik commissars and fanatical Red Army officers. They must be
slaughtered ruthlessly.’ There could be no question of prisoners, of abiding by the
accepted rules of old-fashioned warfare.

[ML59]

From the same source:
"In a report forwarded by Eicke to 56th Panzer Corps on 6 July, Max Simon recorded that a
group of two hundred Russian soldiers had approached Totenkopf units with their hands
raised. The Germans accepted this as a mark of surrender, particularly as the Russians dropped
to the ground. Then, a mere twenty yards from the SS positions, the Russians opened fire.
The Totenkopf men showed no quarter after that. They fired volley after volley into the
Russian columns, killing even those who implored to be allowed to surrender.
There was undoubtedly satisfaction to be gained from the mopping up of ‘Soviet
bandits’. "

[ML59]

"Eicke was determined that most of the construction
work on the winter quarters for the Totenkopf Division should be done by Russian
captives. It was out of the question for his own severely overstretched contingents to
dissipate their energies with such activities.
Luckily, there was no shortage of Russian prisoners. Predictably, those that were
available were coveted by 10th Army Corps and others. Eicke employed his familiar
tactics. He simply ignored everybody and went ahead appropriating as much forced labour
as he wanted.
But by the beginning of January 1942, Sixteenth Army had taken a hand. Eicke was
ordered to send a monthly report with information about the condition of prisoners, the
number that had been shot escaping or had been turned over to the Einsatzgruppen for
‘special handling’. He gritted his teeth and complied, still holding on grimly to the
numbers of prisoners he felt necessary to relieve his men."

[Westphalia1812]

That the Totenkopf conducted a ruthless war in the Soviet Union(aswell as in France and Poland) is out of question. I am familiar with these citations since they are basically the same as in Syndors book.

But you stated that the division reported murdering 60.000 POWs in a few months. This isn't mentioned in your sources above.

[Sid Guttridge]

Just an observational query, but isn't 60,000 approximately the total of casualties the Totenkopf Division suffered during the war?

Sid.

[Westphalia1812]

AFAIK yes. Maybe ML59 mixed up the number of casualties with the number of POWs executed.

[ML59]

Not only Totenkopf conducted a ruthless warfare in Soviet Union, but thanks to its connection to SS headquarter in Berlin it supported and, in exchange, was supported by other SS controlled formations like the Einsatzgruppen. The links between Totenkopf and Einsatzgruppen had been forged back at the time of the invasion of Poland in 1939. Then the three Totenkopf regiments, Oberbayern, Brandenburg and Thuringen, had been deployed in upper Silesia as independent SS- Einsatzgruppen under the overall command of Theodor Eicke.
This was far from being an isolated instance. For example, in 1941 Einsatzgruppe A, under the command of SS-Gruppenfuehrer Heinz Jost, had operated in the Baltic states, undertaking an extensive killing programme in the rear of Army Group North. By October of the same year, Totenkopf Division’s losses had become so severe and the need for replacements so chronic that a whole company from the battalion serving with Einsatzgruppe A was transferred to the Totenkopf Division. It was rushed into action immediately.

[ML59]

AFAIK yes. Maybe ML59 mixed up the number of casualties with the number of POWs executed.

No, but in any case if I cannot dig out the source I'll amend the post accordingly.

[ML59]

From "The SS Finnish Volunteers" a paragraph about war crimes and atrocities committed in Russia by Wiking division personnel.
"At the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg, the lawyer Dr. Curt von Stackelberg mentioned that in the towns passed through by SS-Division Wiking from the outbreak of the war on 22.6.1941 until 21.9.1941 (Lemberg/Lviv, Złoczów/Zolochiv, Tarnopol/Ternopil, Płoskirów/Proskurov, Żytomierz/Zhytomyr, and Biała Cerkiew/Bila Tserkva) “more than six thousand civilians, Jews, were killed. German historian Kai Struve has, for his part, estimated that units of SS-Division Wiking were directly involved in the killing of between 4,280 and 6,950 Jews and other civilians in Galicia in the summer of 1941. Of these, 350–500 were killed in Hrymailiv/Grzymałów, 180–200 in Ozerna/ Jezierna, 250–400 in Skalat, 2,300–4,000 in Tarnopol, 600–850 in Zboriv/Zborów and 600–1,000 in Zolochiv.
Of the 7,290 to 11,308 killed in 54 different cities, municipalities, and villages listed by Struve, this would correspond to around 60%. However, the information given by the Tribunal and Struve is not fully inclusive, as of the ten municipalities only three are mentioned by both of them.
Moreover, the figures given by Struve include predominantly Jews, but not non-Jewish locals or Soviet POWs. This means that the number of civilian victims along the route of the SS-Division Wiking must be considerably higher, by at least 2,000–3,000 deaths, provided the information
from Nuremberg and Struve is accurate. This study covers a set of municipalities not mentioned by von Stackelberg and Struve: the
villages of Olszanica/Vilshanitsa, Nowosielce/Novosilky, Krzywicze/Krivichi and Slowita with a total of perhaps 150 civilians, the villages of Kurowice/Kurovychi, Nowiki, and Podhorodce/Pidhorodtsi with around 100 local people killed, the village of Urycz with perhaps some 300 civilian
victims, the village of Mikulińce/Mykulyntsi with maybe about 50 people killed, and the village of Husiatyn where around 200 Jews were shot. In
total there are an additional 700 civilians, at least,who were killed. From this it appears that a total of around 10,000 local people may well have
been killed along the marching route of the SSDivision Wiking in 20 Ukrainian municipalities in July and August 1941.
Contrary to the situation with civilian victims, it is impossible to estimate the number of Soviet
POWs shot dead by the Wehrmacht and SS-Division Wiking units. Some isolated figures, how­ever, do give an indication: perhaps around 50 in
the villages of Olszanica, Nowosielce, Krzywicze and Slowita, around 180 in Kurowice, c. 100 in
Tarnopol and about 300 in Mikulińce/Mykulyntsi. This would make a total of roughly 600, but
the real number is probably considerably higher, as Soviet POWs were shot by the thousands in July and August 1941."

What transpires from eyewitnesses tales of former Finnish volunteers is a sistematic policy of killing Soviet PoWs. The volunteer Arvo Vidberg from the 11th Co­mpany of the Finnish SS-­Volunteer Battalion re­membered for his part:
There were no (front) lines after the retreat from the Caucasus. Sometimes the Russians were ahead of us, although later they were encircled. The villages were full of them. No prisoners were taken (...) We lived as if the last day is coming. The prisoners were shot, re­gardless of how they raised their hands. I did not do it. Those doing it were others. In battle situations on the steppe, shooting occurred. They were so many that I started to feel ill. There were rows of dead at the outskirts of the villages

[Jan-Hendrik]

Hear said...

Jan-Hendrik

[ML59]

Sorry Jan-Hendrik, I didn't catch it, what do you mean?

[Westphalia1812]

I Think you don't unterstand the issue ML59. A few weeks ago you stated that the Totenkopf division murdered 60.000 POWs in six months. You have not backed up that claim yet.

I know about the atrocities Wiking commited in 1941. But this doesn't change the fact that your Totenkopf claim is still not backed up by any source.

[ML59]

The post about Wiking is not directly related with the claim about Totenkopf but it's only a further evidence of the habit of, especially, W-SS troops of killing PoWs as a SOP. This has been reported by so many different sources that I think it cannot anymore disputed. About Totenkopf specifically some sources, including the one I quoted, claim that they were especially fond of killing Jews, supposed "partisans" and Pows on a far greater scale than other W-SS formations, partly due to the background of most of its personnel, the role played during the Polish campaign by the three Standarten later to become the Totenkopf division, the position of its first commander Theoder Eicke as the creator of the KL system and of its extremely harsh disciplinary code. And it's been proven that in Russia Totenkopf established tight relationship with Einsatzgruppe A, partecipating to some of its operation and receiving from it, when on the frontline, ample supply of food, wine, spirits and clothes appropriated from Baltic Jews killed by Jost's men with the willing support of local militias.