Why the Waffen-SS

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Mar 2021 14:59

Hi Cult Icon,

You post, "These award proposals were processed by the same state agency."

Yes, but the recommendations are made by the unit and formation commanders. A unit might have a high opinion of itself, or low standards, which will affect what reaches the state agency in the first place, and in a major war there is only so much verification that can be made from some central office.

You post, "IIRC 101 SS Heavy Tank battalion had Romanian Volksdeusche drafted into the ranks." I would wonder at that. The Waffen-SS did not think too highly of Romanian Volksdeutsche, who were considered to have to some degree "gone native" after several centuries among the Romanians and Hungarians. The other thing is that Romanian Volksdeutche were from a not very technologically advanced region, so I wonder how many were suitable for use in Germany's premier tank in Germany's premier Waffen-SS tank unit. Have you any more on this?

You post, "British troops in Normandy, during Operation Bluecoat captured infiltrating Asian and Russian troops of the II SS Pz Corps that were, in interrogations said to know nothing but a basic use of a rifle." These could have been Ostruppen not part of the Waffen-SS, but operationally subordinated to it.

Sorry, in haste,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 10 Mar 2021 17:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 17:42

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 11:59
Hi Aida1,





You post, "And new divisions specifically set up for to be made reserve of OB West would obviously spend less time on the front as one could not know beforehand when the landings would take place." That is to miss the point entirely. Why did they have to be Waffen-SS divisions tightly tied, according to you, to the long passive Western theatre and not Army formations flexibly deployable anywhere?

[
Y

Cheers,

Sid.
Being devious again as these divisIons were obviously materially deployable elsewhere as you know very well. And 2 of them were . :roll:
Hitlers prohibition against taking units away from OB west(which he did not respect himself) concerns all divisions. :roll:
The only divisions materially not moveable elsewhere where the static Heer inf div.

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 17:54

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 11:59
Hi Aida1,


You post, "Waffen Ss litterature will not pretend the divisions were always at the front." Nobody said that it did, but it seems to be remarkably silent on the fact that the creation, upgrading and expansion of the Reich-raised Waffen-SS panzer divisions over June 1942 to June 1944 was done behind a shield of their Army equivalents struggling on active battlefronts and at the expense of the Army, or note that over the same period five of the six senior, Reich-raised, Waffen-SS spent significantly less time on an active battlefront that their typical Army equivalents.

Cheers,

Sid.
This is pure falsification of history. You know very well as it has been explained to you many times before that the presence of some waffen ss units for some time in France has nothing to do with their upgrade, expansion or creation . OB West needed x mobile units and you only object to their presence if they are waffen ss. :roll: You know very well why LAH and DR were sent to france in 1942 and in 1944 .

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 17:57

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 11:59
Hi Aida1,



Again, this does not reflect on the Waffen-SS divisions themselves. They had to go where they were sent. But it does seriously put into question (1) any military justification for an independent Waffen-SS in the first place and (2) the selective nature of Waffen-SS historiography.

You are guy with a considerable Waffen-SS library and apparently steeped in the Waffen-SS ethos, yet this all seems to come as an inexplicable surprise to you.

Cheers,

Sid.
Here you contradict yourself as when you pretend that you do not allege that waffen ss were not intentionally spared combat then you have no case.
Your last phrase illustrates your strange thinking and how wffen ss obsessed you are:lol: I have a large library on the german army in ww2 and military history in general. I do not know what i have to do with the waffen ss ethos. :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Aida1 on 10 Mar 2021 18:00, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Mar 2021 17:58

Hi Aida1,

You post, "These divisIons were obviously materially deployable elsewhere as you know very well." Yes, I told you that a long time ago. It is you who has been claiming that they were in some way restricted to OB West, not me!

Anyway, now that you accept they could have been deployed anywhere, why did they take so long to get into action?

Army panzer divisions rebuilt at about the same time were back in action in as little as seven months. 9th and 10th Waffen-SS divisions took 15 months to get into action.

Cheers,

Sid

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 18:03

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 17:58
Hi Aida1,

You post, "These divisIons were obviously materially deployable elsewhere as you know very well." Yes, I told you that a long time ago. It is you who has been claiming that they were in some way restricted to OB West, not me!

Anyway, now that you accept they could have been deployed anywhere, why did they take so long to get into action?

Army panzer divisions rebuilt at about the same time were back in action in as little as seven months. 9th and 10th Waffen-SS divisions took 15 months to get into action.

Cheers,

Sid
Being devious again as a unit in reserve in the west will only see action when the allies land. :roll: You know very well about Hitlers prohibition which was mentioned to you and which concerns all units .

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 18:03

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 17:58
Hi Aida1,

You post, "These divisIons were obviously materially deployable elsewhere as you know very well." Yes, I told you that a long time ago. It is you who has been claiming that they were in some way restricted to OB West, not me!

Anyway, now that you accept they could have been deployed anywhere, why did they take so long to get into action?

Army panzer divisions rebuilt at about the same time were back in action in as little as seven months. 9th and 10th Waffen-SS divisions took 15 months to get into action.

Cheers,

Sid
Being devious again as a unit in reserve in the west will only see action when the allies land. :roll: You know very well about Hitlers prohibition which was mentioned to you and which concerns all units .

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 18:03

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 17:58
Hi Aida1,

You post, "These divisIons were obviously materially deployable elsewhere as you know very well." Yes, I told you that a long time ago. It is you who has been claiming that they were in some way restricted to OB West, not me!

Anyway, now that you accept they could have been deployed anywhere, why did they take so long to get into action?

Army panzer divisions rebuilt at about the same time were back in action in as little as seven months. 9th and 10th Waffen-SS divisions took 15 months to get into action.

Cheers,

Sid
Being devious again as a unit in reserve in the west will only see action when the allies land. :roll: You know very well about Hitlers prohibition which was mentioned to you and which concerns all units . With the prospect of an allied landing it would not do anymore to pull units away to the east.
You intentionally make invalid comparisons as usual.
Last edited by Aida1 on 10 Mar 2021 18:07, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Mar 2021 18:16

Hi Aida1,

You post, "You know very well as it has been explained to you many times before that the presence of some waffen ss units for some time in France has nothing to do with their upgrade, expansion or creation." OK, which Reich-raised Waffen-SS divisions did not undergo either upgrade, expansion or creation there?

You post, "OB West needed x mobile units....." Yup, but not necessarily x Waffen-SS mobile units. Five of the six Reich-raised Waffen-SS divisions spent anything between nearly half and their entire time in France over mid-1942 to mid-44 and even the sixth one made an appearance there. This is very, very much more than equivalent Army formations did. Why?

You post, ".....and you only object to their presence if they are waffen ss." Nope, I am simply questioning why such a high proportion of them were present for so long in a passive theatre when they were completely interchangeable with their Army equivalents? Why, between mid-1942 and mid-1944 did so many of the Reich-raised Waffen-SS divisions miss so much of the war, while most of their Army equivalents did not?

You post, "You know very well why LAH and DR were sent to france in 1942 and in 1944." Indeed I do. What I don't know is why they got them and not equivalent Army formations?

Why the Waffen-SS?

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Mar 2021 18:21

Hi Aida1,

You post (three times, so it must be important): "A unit in reserve in the west will only see action when the allies land." Yup. So why were so many of these formations not seeing combat in the West over mid-1942 to mid-1944 from the Waffen-SS?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 18:25

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 18:16
Hi Aida1,

You post, "You know very well as it has been explained to you many times before that the presence of some waffen ss units for some time in France has nothing to do with their upgrade, expansion or creation." OK, which Reich-raised Waffen-SS divisions did not undergo either upgrade, expansion or creation there?
Why the Waffen-SS?

Cheers,

Sid.
Actually DR and LAH in the first place as they were not sent to upgrade at all in 1942. :lol: Having some units upgrade/refit/create in France was a cheap way of giving OB West mobile reserves. Has been explained before. :roll:

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 18:26

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 18:21
Hi Aida1,

You post (three times, so it must be important): "A unit in reserve in the west will only see action when the allies land." Yup. So why were so many of these formations not seeing combat in the West over mid-1942 to mid-1944 from the Waffen-SS?

Cheers,

Sid.
Most of them were not. There were many units in France over time and most were Heer.

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 18:30

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 18:16
Hi Aida1,


You post, "OB West needed x mobile units....." Yup, but not necessarily x Waffen-SS mobile units. Five of the six Reich-raised Waffen-SS divisions spent anything between nearly half and their entire time in France over mid-1942 to mid-44 and even the sixth one made an appearance there. This is very, very much more than equivalent Army formations did. Why?



Why the Waffen-SS?

Cheers,

Sid.
Obvious nonsense as you know very well why DR and LAH were sent in reinforcement in 1942. And you can find no objection to setting up waffen ss units to give OB west mobile reserves except your bias. :roll: And there were many more waffen ss divisions than those you are obsessed about. :roll:

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 18:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 18:16
Hi Aida1,



You post, "You know very well why LAH and DR were sent to france in 1942 and in 1944." Indeed I do. What I don't know is why they got them and not equivalent Army formations?

Why the Waffen-SS?

Cheers,

Sid.
Has been told you before but you choose to ignore what you do not like to read. :lol: You will have to learn to acept that Adolf Hitler had different opinions than you about which divisons he considered elite. :roll:
Last edited by Aida1 on 10 Mar 2021 18:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Aida1
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Aida1 » 10 Mar 2021 18:32

Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Mar 2021 18:16
Hi Aida1,


You post, ".....and you only object to their presence if they are waffen ss." Nope, I am simply questioning why such a high proportion of them were present for so long in a passive theatre when they were completely interchangeable with their Army equivalents? Why, between mid-1942 and mid-1944 did so many of the Reich-raised Waffen-SS divisions miss so much of the war, while most of their Army equivalents did not?

Cheers,

Sid.
Has been answered before as you know. :roll: Also you choose to ignore to ignore the existence of the many other waffen ss divisions. :lol:

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