Why the Waffen-SS

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
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Qvist
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Qvist » 05 Jul 2012 21:02

sidelock123 wrote:I dont approve or support Nazism or any form of it but I do understand and so did the allies after WW2 that the SS could not simply be reeducated and many veterand went to their graves after the war without any other regret than the loss of the final victory and the system-thats dispassionate and it is a fact. Are you denying this?
I'm not accusing you of suporting nazism. I'm accusing you of applying an absurdly reductive relativism that basically renders you incapable of intelligent discussion because it does not allow for any other option than accepting everything as it is or was.

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sidelock123
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by sidelock123 » 05 Jul 2012 21:13

I offer friendly debate, and differing opinions is part of that. I wont resort to rudeness or slander. I respect your opinion and Its a shame you cant do the same. :idea:

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heimwehr danzig
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by heimwehr danzig » 05 Jul 2012 21:34

Ok...how's this for thought...

One reason I think that people try to tear the W-SS away from the Nazi party as a whole is to allow them to have a discussion about the battles or the recruitment or the uniforms of the W-SS without being dragged into a discussion on the Holocaust or war crimes.

Here on the forum I should expect that most posters will know better than to do this; but I have been in many discussions outside the forum where I have mentioned the performance of the W-SS in a favourable way; only to be cut off sooner or later by something along the lines of "hmm...ok...but what about what they did to the Jews? How can you support them after what they did to the Jews". Well; it may just be that the performance of the W-SS in the particular fight being discussed has nothing to do with the killing of Jews.

I believe that it is possible to have a discussion about the W-SS without discussing the darker aspects of the Third Reich; but alas too few lay people see it that way, so the temptation is there to seperate the two organisations.

For what it's worth, I accept the closeness between the W-SS and the Party. One division was born from Hitler's bodyguard unit, one more from the original KZ guard units, so there was a link, but I do believe that it ought to be possible to discuss the W-SS without discussing politics or war crimes.

Also, being a Nazi does not prevent one from being courageous, from being a capable soldier or indeed from posessing a sense of honour. One should not have to seperate the W-SS from the Party in order to have a discussion about them, particularly here on the forum.
"If I looked like Himmler, I wouldn't go on about race so much"
- Albert Forster, Gauleiter Danzig West Prussia

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 05 Jul 2012 23:49

What your saying is like a wine aficionado talking about wine without the alcohol content. Look people who enjoy reenactment are engaging in fantasy and escape. Of course they don't want to be reminded of the roots of their passion however this is not about them but a discussion of the trendiness and fictional writings that have been passed of as fact. Plus the overwhelming emotion that seems to be there when fact is discussed to counter the current fictional trends.

The arguments as well saying that only the top three had nazi roots is not true because without the first 3 to 5 the rest would have never existed. Look at the commanders and senior NCOs of most divisions and ask where did they come from? What were there roots. I was in a regiment thats roots were in the UK. Our traditions and The Captian General is in the UK. My former regiment was not the first, there are many that are senior and before it but our traditions from the UK are still there. The boss of the SS was Himmler, the Waffen-SS was a child agency their traditions were passed on when new units were created. Both the good and the bad.

If you want to study, create plastic models, be a part of a reenactment group and only focus on the combat side that is fine. But the larger study and understanding of this group must come from its roots and actual history. Not the one that's been created to make a friendlier version of the Waffen-SS to make people feel better about them as an organization.

But in context, both parts of the story need to be told and not ignored.

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 06 Jul 2012 20:50

Indeed agreed,

I will begin by this ...

"Which, and let's be clear on this, is that we're not really in a position to disapprove of a nazism that is not so much wrong as just different."

My comment to this is a bit of one has a right to hold an opinion but the other being oh my this is a bit troubling. But then I don't rock the boat if I can. Probably one of the more scary posts, but then again it's bound to happen here and who am I to judge.

The way I compare it do is there are many ways to greet people. One way is to say hello, the other is to pinch someone, the other is to punch someone. In some circles logic would say those three greetings are just diffrent. From a moral / social standpoint it is wrong to pinch or punch a stranger. So getting back to Nazism, Fascism or the Waffen-SS we can disapprove from a moral and social standpoint. So just like many make judgment calls on Dresden due to its horrors the same can be said for Nazism.

It is also quite clear that many mid level Nazis were clear that they were in it for themselves and knew very well that what they were doing was wrong hence the destruction of evidence and other end and post war actions. That comment of course will get some stirring. Finally outside of the crimes and social offenses perpetrated by the Nazis the antics, back stabbing and bickering between the senior officials in the Nazi party was a joke. Not a shining example of team work and efficiency but then this can be said for many governments.

The Argument must stop gentlemen...

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by David Thompson » 06 Jul 2012 22:12

This topic is locked for poster misconduct and to permit a staff review of the offending posts.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by David Thompson » 09 Jul 2012 16:36

This thread is re-opened for civil, on-topic discussion of the subject matter. Further attempts by the posters to insult or make personal remarks about each other will be removed, and may result in a permanent closure of the thread.

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Qvist
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Qvist » 09 Jul 2012 17:16

sidelock123 wrote:I offer friendly debate, and differing opinions is part of that. I wont resort to rudeness or slander. I respect your opinion and Its a shame you cant do the same. :idea:
Well, there is no opinion that I can either respect or disrespect - the model you're applying on reality doesn't allow you to have one. As far as I can tell, you are simply arguing that the only thing it is really possible to say about NS or anything else is basically that the people who believed in it had their reasons such as they understood them, that that's human nature for you and that nothing is really different from anything else.

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 10 Jul 2012 01:51

The discussion is quite fascinating and where it has evolved to however the questions iis not why people follow fascist dictators or governments that are oppressive. The answers to that are quite obvious.

The question and debate are on the contemporary fiction that has been created from the misunderstood Waffen-SS being some sort of victim to them being the best with no association with the SS or Nazis. This is not about the hardcor fan or the reenactor because it is their hobby and core interest. This is purely about the fiction that has been create and how it is defended as gospel.

The other question that could be asked as well is why is there such passion in the argument.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by tonyh » 10 Jul 2012 02:50

BillHermann wrote:The question and debate are on the contemporary fiction that has been created from the misunderstood Waffen-SS being some sort of victim to them being the best with no association with the SS or Nazis.
I don't think anybody has ever said this. At least not in the way you are trying to frame it.

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 10 Jul 2012 04:39

Indeed I may not be suggested as a black nod white stament, however in many defensive arguments they tend to be sugar coated.

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sidelock123
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by sidelock123 » 12 Jul 2012 12:03

Nobody did say that, i agree tonyh, just seems like some people want to read it that way and are looking for people to blame.....

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 12 Jul 2012 16:38

Not looking to blame, just looking for a legit debate. Some of these observations are quite obvious.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by Golden Diamonds » 15 Jul 2012 18:35

We have a fascination with military organization whether they support an evil regime or not. We are in love with the Roman legions, French Legion, French armies of Napoleon, the Sparta army, Confederate Army, etc., despite the fact that they were supporting evil regimes. It is always on going love/hate relationship that is part of our human nature. In Star Trek, the Space Seed episode, Mr. Spock was shock was by Captain Kirk, Commader Scott, and the other officers's admiration for Khan Noonien Singh. Captian Kirk stated to Mr. Spock that we can admire him and still be against him. Mr. Spock's reply was "illogical" and Captain Kirk said "totally" and then put a guard on Khan's living quarter. Today, we still seem to have an admiration for military organizations even in science fiction works. We have people who admire Klingons, Romunians, Ferengi, and Cardassians in the Star Trek TV series. On Star Trek Deep Space Nine, there are people who admire the Ferengi person named Quark even though he would take the shirt off your back if he could make a profit and we have people who admire Constable Odo even though he was a security officer for the predatory Carassian Empire.

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

Post by BillHermann » 17 Jul 2012 01:15

Indeed, the fascination is there and I find the organization as a whole interesting.

I am talking about the sugar coating
, twisting of facts and the ignorance. They have been turned into something that they are not.

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