StuGs in panzer units, 1942

[jmark]

Hey Alan, it's right here

I'm gonna try to find where they belonged. Also, on 12 August 1942 they reported shortage of ammo only for "7,5 cm Sturmgeschuetz and 7,5 cm Kw.K. (kurz)". That would suggest these Stugs had short guns.

Great document!

[jmark]

StuG were considered as Artillery Inspectorate equipment. Tanks were Schnelle Truppe equipment. And never the twain should meet.

This is precisely why I find it extraordinarily interesting that Stugs were in a panzer unit in 1942. The likelihood of official allocation is slim, but not impossible, so to me, the best explanation is that the panzer battalion scrounged these 2 Stugs to make up the shortfall in its weak 3. Kompanie.

Jason

[Brevity]

And which unit within 10 PD reported these two StuG ?

This was attached to the listing above:


I'm not that good at reading this stuff but i noticed something curious in 8th company / armored Pz.Gren.Rgt.:
there is an extra platoon with 2 "fully tracked" "medium infantry guns" and 4 l.M.G.



Also, I agree with Jason it's unlikely any Stugs were officially allocated in 1942. But units did whatever they could to get some extra punch and we have learned by now that pretty much everything is possible when it comes to Panzer units.

Hope it helps, Jerry

[Leo Niehorster]

I think I am fighting a losing battle, here.
Normally, I would rest at that point, (don't bother me with facts, I know I am right ).
But the symbol shown in the heavy company of the II. Batallion in the diagram above ("Stand vom 15.8.42") really bugs me.

On possible (admittedly weak) explanation is that that the 10. PzDiv was in France between May and November 1942 and that in all probably the division was equipped with training vehicles until it was ready to be sent to the front, and that these StuG could be older models used for that purpose. But the 1.10.42 strength report pretty well destroys that point of view, showing as it does that the division was 99% up to authorized weapons strength, meaning it had all its German equipment also, and no longer was considered as a unit in training.

The strength report ("Waffenbestandsmeldung Stand 1.10.42") listing two 7,5cm Sturmgeschütz above that cannot be refuted. Unfortunately for us, there is no further definition after the designation, such as the other weapons have ("auf S.P.W." or "Kzg" or "auf SFL"). But, note that this designation for the weapon was also used for the SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251/8), which had been issued to the troops since June 1942. Given the location of the symbol in the armored infantry battalion, I suggest that it might be two of these armored support halftracks. (The other two platoons shown were towed by armored halftracks.) Since I hate to be proved wrong, I should go for this explanation.

And then there is the documentary proof in the form of photograph(s). Difficult to counter, let alone disprove. Jason states

I have a close-up photo showing a Stug. with the divisional markings of one of these battalions. In fact, the photo comes from an album to a battalion member. There is absolutely no doubt that Stugs. belonged to one of these battalions.

Just out of curiosity, does this photograph have a date?

Cheers
Leo

[schwarzermai]

hello Leo

the tactical sign shows a "15cm s.I.G. on Sfl."

like this signs





Uwe

[Leo Niehorster]

I didn't go into this possibility for two reasons:

  1/ Two of the symbols in the heavy armored infantry company indicate 75mm equipped platoons, a third one is the same except for the self-propelled modifier; so they probably have the same type of weapon.

  2/ There is a towed heavy infantry gun company in the regiment, shown below the two battalions, which uses the second line underneath the symbol indicating a heavy infantry gun. I cannot imagine the draftsman using a different symbol for a possible 150mm infantry gun platoon in the heavy heavy armored infantry company when he has already used the correct symbol in the heavy infantry gun company.

Hope that all makes sense.

Cheers
Leo

[schwarzermai]

sorry, but no

please compare the signs in 10th pz.div. with 703 - you'll see - its the same!
the 2nd line is missing because its sfl. -at all s.I.G.-Kp.(sfl.) within divisions its the same sign with no second line
--

and here from 1940 - same sign




uwe

[Leo Niehorster]

Hi Mark,

<snip>
Based on my research, the tank battalions of the 3rd, 29th and 60th Motorised Infantry Divisions (Pz.Abt.103, 129 and 160 respectively) were definitely not filled to authorised strength. True, they possessed the authorised number of Panzer IIIs (35), but they all fell short in the Panzer II and Panzer IV department. Even with the later authorisation for just two Panzer IV platoons, two of these battalions possessed just 8 Panzer IVs (rather than 10), while the third had just 4.

Pz-II’s were scarce everywhere. In fact, by late 1942, an AHM officially replaced the regimental Pz-II by medium tanks when they were lost. In January 1943, the Pz-II were eliminated completely from all the tank KStN, although they were used if on hand. [Medium tanks defined as were Pz-III ,(short and long 50mm guns, as well as short 75mm guns) and Pz-IV, (short and long 75mm guns).]
Cheers
Leo

[Leo Niehorster]

Hi Uwe,

sorry, but no
please compare the signs in 10th pz.div. with 703 - you'll see - its the same!
the 2nd line is missing because its sfl. -at all s.I.G.-Kp.(sfl.) within divisions its the same sign with no second line
<snip>
uwe

I don't disagree with these symbols. In any event, (wiggle, wiggle),
  1/ This is a different draftsman from the one shown above ("Stand vom 15.8.42").
  2/ This is an earlier diagram (late 1940) which has been amended manually at a later date (1942) by someone who is obviously not a skilled draftsman using drafting tools.
  3/ Admittedly, I have seen the "7,5cm" symbol (as you show) used for companies equipped with light and heavy infantry guns, but never for 7,5cm infantry guns themselves, or for the platoons equipped with them.

Cheers
Leo
(amended for clarification)

[Alanmccoubrey]

I believe that the two "StuG" indicated in the diagram are in fact SdKfz 251/9 "Stummels" which were armed with the short 75mm which would solve the ammunition puzzle. Given their location in the heavy company of II./PGR 69 which was supposed to have a pair of the 251/9 I believe that the full tracked sign is just a misprint for what should have been the half-tracked sign as was used for the main company .

Regardless of what they actually were these two vehicles are NOT in the Panzer Regiment and therefore have no relevance to the original question posed at the start of this thread .

[Alanmccoubrey]

Jason, why the enigmatic "I have a close-up photo showing a Stug. with the divisional markings of one of these battalions." and not the very simple answer to my question of "Which Division "?

Is the sign the two "Maltest" Crosses of 60 ID (mot) ? If so then it is probably actually the sign of StuG Abt 244 which was also a "Stalingrad" unit.

[John Hilly]

What does the first symbol in the Pz.Jg.Abt. above mean?

[Leo Niehorster]

What does the first symbol in the Pz.Jg.Abt. above mean?

A light, self-propelled, antiaircraft company, with 2× quad 20mm Flak, 8× mono 20mm Flak, and 4× LMG.

Cheers
Leo

[John Hilly]

Thanks Leo!

With best,
J-P

[Brevity]

I believe that the two "StuG" indicated in the diagram are in fact SdKfz 251/9 "Stummels" which were armed with the short 75mm which would solve the ammunition puzzle. Given their location in the heavy company of II./PGR 69 which was supposed to have a pair of the 251/9 I believe that the full tracked sign is just a misprint for what should have been the half-tracked sign as was used for the main company .

hey Alan, that's a pretty good idea, but weren't they issued way too early? It seems serial production of 251/9 only started in very late 1942. I can tell that 6. Pz.Div. reported 2 of them on 15 April 1943 and thought they were excellent (12 knocked out tanks within 3 months). But this indirectly suggests they had them only since January.

These 2 vehicles (whatever they were) were taken to Tunisia and were still present with 8./69 as late as 4 March 1943.

Just to add some drama, a single Stug battery in Tunisia recorded strength of 4 Stugs lang on 10 February 1943, and... 5 Stugs (L/48) in the last listing from 30 April!