StuGs in panzer units, 1942

[jmark]

Is the sign the two "Maltest" Crosses of 60 ID (mot) ? If so then it is probably actually the sign of StuG Abt 244 which was also a "Stalingrad" unit.

Come on Alan, give me some credit, I know the difference between the emblems 60.Inf.Div. and Stug.Abt.244. Did you know that this division's panzer battalion bore its own specific insignia, in addition to the divisional emblem? And that battalion-specific insignia is clearly visible on the Stug. I shared the photo in question with Leo. Perhaps he can confirm my statements.

Under no circumstances will I post the photo publicly, for two reasons: 1) I've been burned several times in the past and have definitely learned my lesson; 2) it will be used in a forthcoming book.

Jason

[jmark]

hey Alan, that's a pretty good idea, but weren't they issued way too early? It seems serial production of 251/9 only started in very late 1942. I can tell that 6. Pz.Div. reported 2 of them on 15 April 1943 and thought they were excellent (12 knocked out tanks within 3 months). But this indirectly suggests they had them only since January.

Two Stummel prototypes were sent to the Ostfront in June 1942 for field tests and proved successful, so 150 units were ordered that same month. I have photographic evidence that 24. Panzer-Division was fielding Stummels in late August 1942. Attached is a photo taken 29-30 August 1942 near Gavrilovka, south-west of Stalingrad.

Jason

- - -

[Leo Niehorster]

First series production of the 7,5cm K51 L/24 (Sd.Kfz. 251/9) began in June 1942.
(Sorry for the typo /8 above )

It was the 90. Sturmbatterie was in North Africa, with 4 Sturmgeschütz, Ausf. F/8 (plus 2 lost enroute).
Wonder where the reported fifth came from?

Cheers
Leo

[Alanmccoubrey]

Is the sign the two "Maltest" Crosses of 60 ID (mot) ? If so then it is probably actually the sign of StuG Abt 244 which was also a "Stalingrad" unit.

Come on Alan, give me some credit, I know the difference between the emblems 60.Inf.Div. and Stug.Abt.244. Did you know that this division's panzer battalion bore its own specific insignia, in addition to the divisional emblem? And that battalion-specific insignia is clearly visible on the Stug. I shared the photo in question with Leo. Perhaps he can confirm my statements.

Under no circumstances will I post the photo publicly, for two reasons: 1) I've been burned several times in the past and have definitely learned my lesson; 2) it will be used in a forthcoming book.

Jason

Jason, How can I give you credit for knowing the difference between the two signs when this is the first time that you've said that the unit was in fact Panzer Abteilung 160. Getting that information out of you has been like drawing blood from a stone. I admit that I did not know that Panzer Abteilung had a different sign from its parent division so please do tell me what that sign was.

[jmark]

I admit that I did not know that Panzer Abteilung had a different sign from its parent division so please do tell me what that sign was.

Here you go.The divisional emblem and battalion insignia were painted on all the battalion's vehicles, including the Stugs.

Jason

[GregSingh]

About 10.Panzer Division, if anyone still interested.
"Panzer Tracts No.8" has a nice photo of StuG with a description:

[..Four of the six StuG Ausf.F/8 (completed by Alkett in late October/early November 1942) under the 10.Panzer-Division survived the sea journey to Tunisia...]

[aquarya]

Hi, All,

Not that I've done any research in this area specifically, but I've just interviewed an LAH man who was a Panzergrenadier. Two points:

1) he was definitely NOT in France in January, 1943. He was somewhere near Stalingrad in the process of being gravely wounded.
2) he was wounded again in near Caen in 1944 while riding into battle on top of a Stumg. (I assumed it was an LAH one but I guess you never know)

For what it's worth.

Heather

[John Hilly]

There were no Waffen-SS troops in Stalingrad.
In January 1943 the 5.SS- Wiking was in Katelnikovo - Prolatarskaja area transferred from Caucasus, fighting delaying battles to prevent Soviets to cut the front in Rostov on Don.

Your interviewee must have served in Wiking which was at least near Stalingrad or misremembers.

With best,
J-P

[aquarya]

Anything is possible (he could misremember, I could be remembering wrong after several interviews in a row, I could have made a mistake, it could be true, etc. etc.) So I'm listening to the interview. This is what I have:

1) Flown into airport outside of Leningrad on JU 52's at end of 1941 (no winter clothes), V. Battalion
2) Belgium for refresh/refit - Summer 1942,
3) Verney (sp?) France - 20 km from Paris - to do war games to get new troops fit - fall 1942,
4) Rumor went around that they were going to go to Africa
5) Ordered to pick up new equipment/uniforms - got winter uniforms - realized not going to Africa
6) Just after Christmas troops and equipment loaded up on a train in Paris
7) Had Panzer IV langs
8) About 8 days on the train, offloaded about 50 km vor Stalingrad - zwischen Stalingrad und Charkow - Glenice (sp?) or Glenitsche
9) Sent over the river Don - river was frozen - tried to drive over it on the KFZ 69 Kuebelwagen, got stuck, had summer tires for Africa on it, no winter tires,
10) snow waist high
11) sent 5 km outside the lines to a forward observation point with the 2 MG's
12) lived through huge Russian attack, badly wounded

etc. etc.

Seems pretty detailed about the attacks, commanders, very lights set off, etc. for another 20 minutes or so...

Again, for what it's worth

heather

[GregSingh]

Although LAH veteran story is interesting and deserves a separate topic, I don't think it was possible for any German unit (except those encircled in Stalingrad) to be 50km from this town around 7-8 of January 1943. Russians already taken Morozovsk 200km to the west and mentioned SS-Wiking division was defending Zimovniki 280km south-west from S.
Kampfgruppe Schuldt which arrived near Bogutschar in mid December 1942, had LAHSS 7th battalion under command. It was close to Don river, but still 300km from Stalingrad, and a couple of weeks earlier.
Units of LAHSS were arriving east of Kharkov during January 1943 and went into action near Kupiansk, which is near 500km from S. and 100km from Kharkov.

[John Hilly]

1) Flown into airport outside of Leningrad on JU 52's at end of 1941 (no winter clothes), V. Battalion

This Leningrad part puzzles me also.

With best,
J-P

[aquarya]

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... +leningrad

Dates are a little off, granted, but it looks right.

I'll try in the course of the next months to straighten out the dates and locations a little bit more...

[John Hilly]

Thanks aquarya. I had no idea that there was a LSSAH battalion in the Leningrad front. Your veteran is right about this.
One learns something new every day!

With best,
J-P

[Military1945]

The presence of StuGs in the SS Div. Reich mentioned in the Otto Weidinger book Division Das Reich 1941-43. On page 102 it describes "Chef der Sturmgeschützbatterie gefallen" (Leader of the StuG Battery is KIA). The account describing events on Oct 8, 1941 supposedly comes from the KTB of the StuG battery. I can add more details about the names etc of the described soldiers...

Their presence is also mentioned in a war diary I'm doing a series on on YouTube. This is E27, they appear in E28 which is about to be uploaded
https://youtu.be/Ry7YXBhe5HE

[Art]

It's known that das Reich, Totenkopf and Leibstandarte each have a StuG battery in 1941:
http://niehorster.org/011_germany/41_or ... rg_wss.htm

It was not a panzer units strictly speaking, and they didn't have any about that time.