Guide for OOB symbols

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Richard Hedrick
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Guide for OOB symbols

#1

Post by Richard Hedrick » 11 Oct 2014, 22:25

Hello,

Below are a few examples of OOB using symbols. Does anyone know of a document or book that explains what all these symbols are. I can make out quite few but it would be much easier if I had comprehensive guide for them. I would also like to convert some KStN to this format, because it is more brief and to the point, so it would be nice to have a standard to work from.

Many Thanks,
Richard
Sprite 24.jpg
OOB Symbols

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Marcus
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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#2

Post by Marcus » 11 Oct 2014, 23:13

You might find the "Handbook of WWII German military symbols & abbreviations 1943-1945" by Terrence Booth helpful.

/Marcus


Richard Hedrick
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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#3

Post by Richard Hedrick » 12 Oct 2014, 01:16

Thanks Marcus. i have that book but it symbols like most sources, including Tessins volume 15, are the more typical symbols as seen from profile. These "birds eye view" type are not as common and cannot be found in either of those books.

If nothing turns up I may have to resort to filling in the gaps with good guesses.

thanks again,
Richard

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#4

Post by Gary Kennedy » 12 Oct 2014, 01:55

A selection are available here -

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... gures.html

What's the last one of those images for by the way, I'm guessing early period Kradschutzen but I can't decide which KStN?

Gary

Richard Hedrick
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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#5

Post by Richard Hedrick » 12 Oct 2014, 11:02

I thought i had seen some somewhere but just could not remember where. thanks a lot Gary.

There are still many symbols not covered in Leo's stuff so maybe a more comprehensive source will turn up.


You are correct, though i am not sure of the actual KStN number as it is not labeled.

thanks again,
Richard
Kradschützen Komp.jpg

GregSingh
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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#6

Post by GregSingh » 12 Oct 2014, 12:11

It's interesting. It might me 1112 from 1940-41.
2 lmg per group, but only Half-Platoon of Heavy Machine Guns; and a Maintenance Section...

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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#7

Post by Gary Kennedy » 12 Oct 2014, 14:14

Yep, I agree that it's most likely 1112 of 1st Feb 1941, one of the lost KStN (I think the Maint Det helps date it). The similar 1111 is available on WW2daybyday -

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11111feb41.htm

I was a bit thrown by the figures appended to the vehicle schematics, but at a guess I would say they refer to officers, NCOs, men and in brackets drivers (less NCOs). If you take 1111 and add a fourth motorcycle and combination to each Squad, for two LMG numbers and a motorcyclist, you get the same figures as the schematic. The HMG Section is the same. I make the schematic as showing one extra man in Coy HQ, then making some detail changes to the Coy Tns and Maint Det which will take a bit of squinting to sort out.

If there's a similar schematic for a Schutzen Company proper of Feb41 I'd love to see it!

Gary

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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#8

Post by Richard Hedrick » 13 Oct 2014, 01:47

Not sure of the date but there were a few more pages in the document group this came from, H36/161.

I have uploaded the group of files at the link below. they are not great quality and most are in that "negative" format. 35 MB.

Thanks,
Richard

http://www.adrive.com/public/gXyw92/H36-161.zip

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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#9

Post by GregSingh » 13 Oct 2014, 02:51

Wow!
Thanks Richard, good stuff from 1940-41.

On pages 2-7 pioniere and bridge units - early 1940
On pages 9-12 we have motorcycle battalion.
On pages 13-22 motorized infantry regiment - one used for panzer divisions.
Both most likely from late 1940 or early 1941.
Page 23 - KStN 1187 - 15.09.41, pity you can't see much...

There is a note on page 22 - Schützen regiment 115 - If I read correctly - one from 15.Panzer division.

Schützen komp. (mot) setup - page 20 - seems to match what was already discussed here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=190063

Unfortunately several labels are missing. Although these are not KStN's as such, here are my guesses:

page 13 - KStN 1104 - Stb./Schütz.Rgts.(mot)
page 14,15 - KStN 1153 - Stbs.Kp./Schütz.Rgts.(mot)
page 16,17 - KStN 1120 - Gesch.Kp. (2 s., 4 le.I.G.) (mot Z)
page 18 - KStN 202 - le.Inf.Kol. (mot)
page 19 - KStN 1108 - Stb./Schütz.Btls.(mot)

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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#10

Post by Gary Kennedy » 13 Oct 2014, 09:02

I'll add my thanks too, and agree with Greg's estimates that these are the schematics for the Feb41 Schützen-Regiment. I only had chance for a quick look late last night but noticed the similarity between the Platoon layout and that from the earlier thread on the 1937/38 model.

Thanks again, it wasn't a good day in the real world yesterday as we had to say goodbye to a 17-yr old collie dog who just couldn't carry on anymore, and I'll appreciate having something to divert my attention for a while.

Gary

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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#11

Post by rossmcpharter » 13 Oct 2014, 09:24

Brilliant! Thank You Richard, especially for the link, another piece in the jigsaw.

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Natter
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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#12

Post by Natter » 13 Oct 2014, 13:31

Have you checked these US publications?
German Military Symbols (1944)
German Military Symbols - Supplements (1944)
FM 21-30 Conventional Signs, Military Symbols and Abbreviations (1943)


If you want pdf-copies, just send me a PM.

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#13

Post by Gary Kennedy » 15 Oct 2014, 21:13

I’ve had a more detailed look through the ‘schematic’ diagrams now and must confess to being somewhat puzzled.

My initial instinct was that these were graphic representations of the Feb41 series of KStN tables for the Motorised Schutzen Regiment due to a couple of features, namely the small Maint Det with Coy HQs and the Regtl Staff Coy and Gun Coy with 7.5-cm and 15-cm weapons, both developments I understand came in 1941. Checking in more detail though I’ve found a lot of similarities with the Oct37 and Oct38 KStN tables, or what’s left of them.

Page 9 of Richard’s upload shows a Motorcycle Rifle Bn HQ, which matches with KStN 1109 of Oct37 in many respects; the officer/official/NCO/private split is the same, and the total number of cars/trucks/lorries and motorcycles/combinations is also. However, there is an anomaly in the graphic itself, which refers to 21 vehicles, 12 motorcycles, 4 with side cars. That’s identical to KStN 1109, but the graphic actually shows more vehicles, an extra lorry for each of the Coy Trains elements, plus a Kfz2/40 for the Maint Gp. These extra vehicles don’t look to rate any drivers.

Question, could they be attached from elsewhere in the Division?

Page 10 shows a Motorcycle Rifle Coy that doesn’t match any one KStN. The Coy HQ and Rifle Pls are the same as 1111a of Oct38, the HMG Sec same as 1111 of Oct37, and the Battle Tn is almost the same as 1111a. The Baggage Tn is almost the same, but again has an extra lorry, and the 1937/38 tables don’t show a Maint Det. The same anomaly occurs here again, in that the graphic says 16 cars/lorries at the top, but shows 18.

The Motocycle MG Coy on page 11 is difficult to check against. The graphic shows 27 cars/trucks/lorries, but the figures under the title indicate 25. The Mortar Pl matches the Oct38 KStN 1126 exactly.

The Heavy Coy on page 12 almost matches the Oct37 tables (1121, 1122, 1123 and 1124), but again has an extra lorry with the Bag Tn and a Kfz2/40 with the Battle Tn that don’t feature on the KStNs. These two extra vehicles are also excluded from the total on the graphic.

So the Motorcycle Bn looks like a slightly augmented version of the surviving 1937/38 KStN tables in terms of support and service vehicles, but almost bang on for personnel.

The series of graphics for the Mot Schutzen Regt do tend towards the Feb41 tables, but page 21 for the MG Coy differs markedly from the actual 1116 of Feb41 (which is still around) in two respects. The Sigs Det on the graphic has 12 men in two Kfz70s, while the KStN proper has 8 men in two light cars. Also the Mortar Pl in the graphic is the same as the Oct38 table, not the Feb41.

I don’t know what any of that means about dating the documents, but there you go.

Gary

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Re: Guide for OOB symbols

#14

Post by Gary Kennedy » 18 Oct 2014, 20:50

I had one last thought on this subject. Over on sturmpanzer.com are Kriegsgliederung for German Divisions for Nov1940. The details for the Pz Divs suggest this was the first time attempt at standardizing the many and varied structures found in 1939/40. The Schutzen Regt layout is exactly the same as the schematics, and likewise the Krad Schutzen Coys found with the Brigade, and the Recce Bn, has the 18 LMG + 2 HMG shown in the schematics, but not found in any surviving KStN. I reckon then that the schematics posted by Richard represent the first re-writing of the Schutzen KStN tables post France 1940, but before the Feb1941 drafts were produced prior to Russia 1941, hence the differences.

Gary

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