Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

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Rob - wssob2
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Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#1

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 12 Nov 2014, 07:43

Let's tackle another oft cited Waffen-SS military success - the SS Panzer Corps and its performance during the Battle of Kursk:

1) In the battle, did the SS Panzer Corps win a "victory" or a "defensive victory" and why?

2) Which played more of a role in the SS Panzer Corps performance - size or tactical acumen?

3) How did Waffen-SS performance during Kursk affect the strategic situation in July 1943?

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seaburn
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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#2

Post by seaburn » 12 Nov 2014, 10:18

Hi Rob, You mention the 'oft cited military success' of the WSS at Kursk. To ensure that this thread proceeds to promote intelligent debate, as you have started this thread, you should first reference who has claimed this and what your rebuttal is to them, otherwise it may just lure people in with a knee jerk reaction which I'm sure is not what you intended. Are you referring to WSS promotional books or others by respected authors or just fanboy babble you have seen on the net ?


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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#3

Post by Cult Icon » 13 Nov 2014, 21:19

I'm surprised that a spin off thread for Kharkov 1943 hasn't been made yet.. :milwink:

The answers to these are an affirmative 'NO!'. I guess they will be useful to debunk false associations?

Germanicus
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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#4

Post by Germanicus » 13 Nov 2014, 21:42

Dear Cult Icon

Can you cite something in order to substantiate your claim? There has to be more than an affirmative 'No' to help readers understand why?

Just a thought

Mark

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#5

Post by Cult Icon » 13 Nov 2014, 21:47

Yea, sure:

1. Stumbling colossus
2. Colossus reborn
3. Hitler’s Nemesis: the Red army
4. (Half) Soviet operational art: In pursuit of Deep battle
5. Soviet Defense tactics at Kursk
6. Standing Fast: German defense doctrine
7. Panzer tactics: German small unit armor
8. T-34 in Action
9. Panzer Killers: Soviet Anti-tank
10. Red Army Tank commanders
11. Winter Storm
12. Stopped at Stalingrad
13. Beyond Stalingrad
14. Death of the Leaping Horseman 24th Panzer
15. Armor and Blood
16. Hitler’s Greatest Defeat
17. Unit history 3rd Panzer (2 out of 2)
18. Stalin’s keys to victory
19. Panzer Wedge (1 and 2)
20. Unit history 3rd Panzer (1 out of 2)
21. Unit history GD (1 out of 3)
22. Kursk Dunn
23. Soviet Blitzkrieg
24. Unit history GD (2 out of 3)
25. Unit history 23rd Panzer
26. Unit history GD (3 out of 3)
27. Last Victory in Russia
28. Decision in the Ukraine
29. Korsun Pocket Zetterling
30. Red Storm over the Balkans
31. Hell’s Gate
32. Operation Mars
33. Soviet General Staff Belorussia 1944

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seaburn
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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#6

Post by seaburn » 13 Nov 2014, 21:51

Sadly, I have to agree 'Germanicus' - I think 'Cult Icon's' post adds nothing to an intelligent informed debate, its a 'baiting' comment - with no substance or facts. I think we fellow members are just being lined up for the 'same old, same old' weary merry-go-round of point scoring. This thread will hold no interest for me personally if this is setting the tone, which is something I feared when I posted above. :roll:

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#7

Post by Cult Icon » 13 Nov 2014, 21:58

To claim that 'Narva', 'Kharkov'or 'Kursk' or any other large scale operation/campaign which involved a minority of SS units as an 'SS victory' is beyond bizarre. There is no argument here, as the premise is invalid. Instead of 'flaming' me, you should turn your attention on the OP's series of threads- the purpose of which looks not too serious to me.

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seaburn
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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#8

Post by seaburn » 13 Nov 2014, 22:07

Cult Icon wrote:To claim that 'Narva', 'Kharkov'or 'Kursk' or any other large scale operation/campaign which involved a minority of SS units as an 'SS victory' is beyond bizarre. There is no argument here, as the premise is invalid. Instead of 'flaming' me, you should turn your attention on the OP's series of threads- the purpose of which looks not too serious to me.
I confess that I am utterly confused - Are you saying that poster 'Robwssob' has started threads that were not meant to promote serious debate ? 8O


Ps: Post 5 is unreadable.

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#9

Post by Cult Icon » 13 Nov 2014, 22:18

Have any of the SS threads been serious research thread? That is another affirmative, 'NO!'. To pull out a few SS units from the context of an operation or campaign and then try to qualify it as a 'SS military success' is not serious discussion. There are some that have been promoting this, and these threads have extended this train. In the case of this thread, the Battle of Kursk was an unmitigated failure for the Axis forces, and it doesn't matter if Rotmistrov wasted his armor in faulty deployment against the II SS Panzer korps. The premise of this thread is invalid.

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seaburn
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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#10

Post by seaburn » 13 Nov 2014, 22:36

Well in some ways 'Cult Icon' we are in agreement as I had asked Rob (post 2) to reference the source of his statement 'the oft cited military success of the WSS at Kursk' - Who said this ? It wasn't posted in reply to someone who raised this theory in some of the other current threads I think. If it was only from a low brow web site or from promotional WSS books, there may be nothing to debate. I confess I know little about the nuts and bolts of the battle, but I've never heard that it was touted as such, so the assertion by Rob was a bit of a mystery to me. Hopefully he did post it in order to promote an informed discussion. :? All should be revealed when he posts a reply.

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Harro
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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#11

Post by Harro » 13 Nov 2014, 23:23

seaburn wrote:Ps: Post 5 is unreadable.
It reads:
1. Stumbling colossus
2. Colossus reborn
3. Hitler’s Nemesis: the Red army
4. (Half) Soviet operational art: In pursuit of Deep battle
5. Soviet Defense tactics at Kursk
6. Standing Fast: German defense doctrine
7. Panzer tactics: German small unit armor
8. T-34 in Action
9. Panzer Killers: Soviet Anti-tank
10. Red Army Tank commanders
11. Winter Storm
12. Stopped at Stalingrad
13. Beyond Stalingrad
14. Death of the Leaping Horseman 24th Panzer
15. Armor and Blood
16. Hitler’s Greatest Defeat
17. Unit history 3rd Panzer (2 out of 2)
18. Stalin’s keys to victory
19. Panzer Wedge (1 and 2)
20. Unit history 3rd Panzer (1 out of 2)
21. Unit history GD (1 out of 3)
22. Kursk Dunn
23. Soviet Blitzkrieg
24. Unit history GD (2 out of 3)
25. Unit history 23rd Panzer
26. Unit history GD (3 out of 3)
27. Last Victory in Russia
28. Decision in the Ukraine
29. Korsun Pocket Zetterling
30. Red Storm over the Balkans
31. Hell’s Gate
32. Operation Mars
33. Soviet General Staff Belorussia 1944
No clue why "Cult Icon" masked the text but if you select the black bars with your right mouse button the text becomes visible.

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seaburn
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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#12

Post by seaburn » 13 Nov 2014, 23:30

Thanks Harro - I've seen that system used to prevent 'spoilers' on other sites - not sure why it was used here. I Presume they are book titles as No 27 looks like Nipe's - but as there are no authors listed, I am unable to evaluate the credibility of their information.

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#13

Post by GregSingh » 14 Nov 2014, 00:00

Looks like a book list.
At (22) we have an author's surname: Dunn, I think...

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#14

Post by Cult Icon » 14 Nov 2014, 00:20

I put the spoiler as it was meant to be a tongue & cheek response to something (that is to me) a completely silly question. Unfortunately, this site does not shrink the spoiler caps, which is something I didn't anticipate.

It is actually my personal reading list (currently up to 27-29) excluding 'Battle of Kursk' and 'From Don to the Dnepr' (Glantz) Yes, I have read books on these battles and they are not dominated by the SS's accomplishments by a long shot.........

Germanicus
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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Kursk 1943

#15

Post by Germanicus » 14 Nov 2014, 03:33

Cult Icon... You were asked to cite something in order to substantiate a flippant response and from a view point your initial response appeared silly. You may have understood it but very few others did!!.. I mean is that even substance... your response in Post 3... then you cut and paste Stumbling Colossus by Glantz etc ... I thought we were having a serious debate and then you attack the thread written by Rob-wssob2..

I thought Belgrade was very informative and researched... as for Glantz... there has been an ongoing discussion whether he is as good a judge to be relied upon http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=148122. Even the Dupuy website is critical... I am in the process of reading Stumbling Colossus. I will let you know.. Dunn has also been criticised ..each and every author that writes anything is criticised.. one would have to use varied sources.. who is respected then.. yes each writer has a fan base and then those who oppose.

What everyone knows already is this... How can one put up Kursk and project it in the success category... and then try to argue for it.. at least the southern wing did better than the northern wing... If you see what has occurred here is that too many people were too wise to even respond to the question... seaburn was correct in what is stated in Post 2... you responded with your view .. one word NO, which then opens up people to respond and at the same time shuts people down, nothing is learned ...

As for why there was little response until you wrote what you did, in effect it is a trap... and you fell into it... you may not think you did, but you have.. read between the lines.. it is there for you to see, if you can... from the initial thread ...

AHF should be about healthy debate, informative discussion, friendly and passionate... historical is great... ego's should be set aside.. if you look at the Belgrade debate.. when civility came back into the discussion it was a pleasure to read.. it is possible to assist each other on this forum.. it is the wording of ones response that will lead to openness and enjoyment.. The I know more than you know more BS.. is not welcomed or My view is better than your view is going to have people leave in droves...

A few choice words here and there, such as, I see what you mean however have you seen this etc, etc will allow for development and growth... Inviting is good, slamming a door on ones face is not going to win any friends... this isn't directed at you, but at everyone who writes on this forum.. think before you write and ponder how you would feel if it was written to you.. that will lead to people being invited to share... it really is that easy...

Just a thought

Most respectfully

Mark

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