Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

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Luft 76
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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Luft 76 » 26 Dec 2015 20:28

Hello all

I only discovered now these interesting additions. The track of Flak Abt. 11700 is very credible, indeed. But the subordination to III.Fl.Korps still surprised me. New information anyway.

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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Sam Wren » 28 Dec 2015 09:21

According to Zetterling, three Flakkampfgruppen were created for III.Flakkorps. The number for two of them were known: 11700 & 13300. He says that the third one was probably 12400 (based on Luftflotten-Kommando 3, Ia/Flak Nr. 11457/44 g.Kdos 17.7.44, Gliederung der Flakartillerie, Stand 15.7.44, BA-MA RL 7/58)

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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Larry D. » 28 Dec 2015 14:17

Flak-Abt. 12400 (b.mot.) (a.k.a. Flak-Abt. z.b.V. 12400) had the same organizational structure as 11700 but may not have reached Caen in time for the heavy fighting there 18-20 July. On 15 July 1944, it was in Montjavoult/154 km E of Caen under Flak-Rgt. 87 (Beauvais)/18. Flakbrigade. Additionally, this Abteilung withdrew from France intact and that suggests it saw limited combat in Normandy, if any. This information comes from what I believe is the same document Zetterling cited.

Source:
NARA WashDC: RG 242, Microcopy T-971, Roll 18, Frame 052 (OOB of all Flak units in the Luftflotte 3 area on 15 July 1944 with their locations and chain-of-command.)

The other Flak-Abt., 13300, does not appear to have been completed before the German retreat from France. At least no one aside from Zetterling has found any record of its existence.

L.

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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Manuferey » 28 Dec 2015 15:42

Sam Wren wrote:According to Zetterling, three Flakkampfgruppen were created for III.Flakkorps. The number for two of them were known: 11700 & 13300. He says that the third one was probably 12400 (based on Luftflotten-Kommando 3, Ia/Flak Nr. 11457/44 g.Kdos 17.7.44, Gliederung der Flakartillerie, Stand 15.7.44, BA-MA RL 7/58)
I am surprised to see that Flakkampfgruppen would be equivalent in size to Abteilungen (11700, 13300 or 12400) and not bigger when comparing to Flagruppe Hoehne on the map below dated 31 July 1944.

But was Flakgruppe Hoehne part of III. Flak Korps or separate?

Image

Hoehne had been appointed Kommandeur of Flak Artillerie Schule 31 (West) in June 44:
HÖHNE, Emil. (DOB: 15.12.94). (W.B.K. Bitterfeld).
28.05.43 Hptm. d.R. in Luftsperr-Abt. 205, ordered to FFAS Bad Saarow (Neu-Golm) for temporary duty.
15.06.43 in Luftsperr-Abt. 205, appt provisional Kdr. Ausbildungsgruppe Luftsperr Bad Saarow (to 18.09.43).
18.09.43 appt Kdr. Feld-FAS(Mitte) 18.
16.10.43 Hptm. (d.R./Flak).01.12.43 promo to Maj.d.R.
06.44 Maj., appt Kdr. Flak-Abt. FAS 31 (West) (to 09.44).
15.01.45 appt Kdr. Luftsperr-Abt. 106.

Emmanuel

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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Luft 76 » 28 Dec 2015 16:37

I think there are sometimes confusion between "part of" and "subordinated to". INMO, the three Flakkampfgruppen 11700, 12400 and perhaps 13300 were only subordinated to III. FK, and perhaps not all the time. Only a point of detail, it's true.
Larry : 13300 seems to exist before june 44 : I have found a trace of him on an original ID document. And it was named "Flak Abt. 13300".
Emmanuel : if I read correctly N. Zetterling's chapter about Flak, I can say that Flakgruppe Höhne was not under command of III. FlakKorps but of 13. Flak Division.
And you must not confuse a Flak Kampfgruppe (also named Flakkampftrupp) and a Flakgruppe : they haven't the same importance.
Last edited by Luft 76 on 28 Dec 2015 19:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Larry D. » 28 Dec 2015 18:35

All: this is getting interesting. We are confusing Feld-Flakartillerieschule 31 (West) with Flak-Abteilung 31 (West). They were two separate animals (see below). Further, enter two different Luftwaffe Flak officers named Höhne. One of them, Obstlt. Walter Höhne, was the Kdr. of FAS 31 (West) to June 1944. He was replaced by Obstlt. Otto Täffner. Then we have a Major Emil Höhne. He was transferred from Feld-FAS (Mitte) 18 to Chartres in June 1944 to form and command Flak-Abteilung 31 (West).

Flak-Abt. FAS 31 (West)
Formed June 1944 at Chartres/W France, initially with a Stab and 1.-6. Batterien. The Abteilung was composed of trainees from FAS 31 (West).
Subordinated to:
1. Flakbrigade (Jun – Aug/Sep 44)
History:
15 Jul 44: Chartres - reinforced to the strength of several Abteilungen by adding ad hoc batteries and deployed along the supply roads leading to the front in Normandy to counter Allied fighter and fighter bomber attacks (Strassenjagd).
1 Aug 44: 2. Battr. claimed 3 B-17 bombers this date.
28 Sep 44: following the retreat from France, elements of 7. Battr. was located in Bessenheim/Alsace.
FpNs: Stab (L 62109), 1. Battr. (L 62848), 2. Battr. (L 63604), 3. Battr. (L 60519), 4. Battr. ( 61388), 5. Battr. (L 62152), 6. Battr. (L 39457).
Kommandeur:
Maj. Emil Höhne (Jun – Sep 44)

[Sources: G.Tessin-Verbände und Truppen der Deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS 1939-1945. Teil 14: Die Luftstreitkräfte; NARA WashDC: RG 242 (Microcopy T-78 roll 131/6060348, Microcopy T-311 roll 139/604, Microcopy T-405 roll 13/325, Microcopy T-971 roll 18/053); BA-MA Freiburg: Luftwaffen-Personalamt L.P.(A)5(V) (OKL Chef für Ausz. und Disziplin) – the so-called “claims” lists).

Luft76: you are correct - 13300 did exist. I just found an official listing for it in the Generalfeldpostmeister Übersicht in NARA T-78 roll 131. Its organization was the same as for 11700 and 12400, and had the following FpNs:

Stab: L 63287
I. -
II. -
III. L 62632
IV. L 63259
V. L 60057
VI. L 61032
VII. L 60095

I still question whether it was ever fully formed and brought to action. Do you have anything more on it?

L.

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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Luft 76 » 28 Dec 2015 19:07

Larry D. wrote: I still question whether it was ever fully formed and brought to action. Do you have anything more on it?

L.
Unfortunatly not. I have only its trace on a paybook of a Flak soldier who was brievely transferred to s. Flak Abt. 13300 before to join gem. Flak Abt. 497 in mid june 44.

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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Manuferey » 30 Dec 2015 18:05

Larry D. wrote:All: this is getting interesting. We are confusing Feld-Flakartillerieschule 31 (West) with Flak-Abteilung 31 (West). They were two separate animals (see below).
Yes, indeed. This is a confusing animal.

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/schule/fas.htm indicates that part of Feld-Flakartillerieschule 31 (West) was mobilized as Flak-Abteilung FAS 31 in June 1944:
Feld-Flakartillerie-Schule 31 (West)
Formed in 1941 as Kriegs-Flakartillerie-Schule Westfrankreich, later Luftgau-Flakartillerie-Schule Westfrankreich. In 1942/43 renamed Feld-Flakartillerie-Schule 31 (West). Stationed in Chartres during its existence, with Flakartillerie-Schießplatz Biscarosse attached. In 6.44 part of the unit was mobilized as Flak-Abteilung FAS 31 (6 batteries) for combat duties. Both the school and Flak-Abteilung was disbanded after the withdrawal from France.

It looks like even the Germans themselves may have been confused: a German document dated June 28, 1944, indicates that 5./Feldflakartillerie Schule (West)/31 - not 5./Flak-Abteilung FAS 31 - was part of Kampfhruppe Höhne. :?

"5./Feldflakartillerie schule (West)/31 mit 20 M.G. 151 ist in Raum St-Lô einzusetzen, sie ist auf Zusammenarbeit mit II. Fallsch. Korps anzuweisen."
which I translate by:
"5./Feldflakartillerie school (West)/31 with 20 MG 151 is to be used in the area of St – Lô. It is instructed to cooperate with II. Fallsch. Korps."

Could the German writer have meant 5./Flak-Abteilung FAS 31 instead of 5./Feldflakartillerie schule (West) /31 ? :idea:

Emmanuel

P.S. I'm not sure if the MG 151 mentioned above was the original 1.5 cm caliber MG or its 2 cm caliber derivative MG 151/20.

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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Larry D. » 30 Dec 2015 20:14

Emmanuel wrote in part:
Could the German writer have meant 5./Flak-Abteilung FAS 31 instead of 5./Feldflakartillerie schule (West) /31 ? :idea:
Almost certainly, Emmanuel. With the mobilization of Flak-Abt. FAS 31 in June, all that would have been left of FAS 31 would have been the small Stab and perhaps a few instructors, probably not more that 25 to 30 individuals.

By the way, your translation of the 28 June 1944 document is perfect.

L.

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Re: Flak Abt. zbV 26 "Helma"? u/c III. Flak-Korps, Caen

Post by Manuferey » 31 Dec 2015 03:03

Thank you, Larry.

Emmanuel

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