KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
David,
Some of those KStN are held by BAMA as well as being on the german docs in Russia site for freeview. Likewise some are also available via the NARA holdings placed online, but the NARA lists aren't everything held by BAMA. I've tried to annotate your first list above to show what looks to be unique to germandoc... and what's of similar date range held by BAMA.
Gary
First batch
9 – 1/1/40 (BAMA - 01/02/43)
10 – 15/11/40 (BAMA - Nil?)
11a – 1/6/42 (BAMA - 01/05/39)
21a – 1/5/40 (BAMA - 01/11/41, as KStN 21)
23 – 28/8/40 (BAMA - Nil?)
51 – 28/8/40 (BAMA 01/10/37 and 01/11/41)
54 – 24/8/40 (BAMA 01/11/41)
71 – 28/12/39
101n – 1/10/43 (BAMA 01/10/37, as 101R, and 01/12/43)
120 – 30/12/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
131c – 10/10/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
151c – 10/10/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
154V – 1/9/44 (in BAMA, not NARA)
164 – 30/12/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
166 – 30/12/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
167 – 30/12/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
184d – 31/1/41 (in BAMA)
187 – 31/1/41 (in BAMA)
215 – 31/1/41 (in BAMA)
401 – 1/3/44 (in BAMA, not NARA)
401n – 1/10/43 (in BAMA)
403 – 1/3/44 (in BAMA, not NARA)
403n – 1/10/43 (in BAMA)
433n – 1/10/43 (in BAMA)
459n – 1/10/43 (summary totals) (in BAMA)
532 – 27/2/40 (not in BAMA?)
533 – 31/3/40 (not in BAMA till 01/07/44?)
540 – 31/3/40 (not in BAMA till 01/11/44?)
562 – 23/5/40 (not in BAMA?)
575n – 1/12/43 (summary totals) (not in BAMA?)
582n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA?)
582n – 1/12/43 (in BAMA)
590n – 1/12/43 (not in BAMA?)
613 – 1/3/42 (not in BAMA 01/11/43)
702n – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
702V – 1/9/44 (in BAMA)
711n – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
723n – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
805 – 15/2/40 (in BAMA 01/10/37 and 01/03/43)
942 – 20/5/40 (not in BAMA till 01/05/44)
1103 – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1104 – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1108 (fg) – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1113 (gp) (fg) – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1120a – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1121 (fg) – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1121a (gp) – 1/3/43 (in BAMA)
1144 – 29/2/40 (in BAMA 01/11/41)
1145 (gp) – 1/3/43 (in BAMA)
1309 – 3/1/40 (in BAMA 01/03/39)
1379 – 7/2/40 (in BAMA 01/03/43)
2043 – 15/3/40 (in BAMA 01/10/37)
2097 – 31/1/41 (in BAMA)
2222 (W) – 30/4/40 (not in BAMA?)
2251 – 30/11/43 (in BAMA)
5095 – 15/3/40 (not in BAMA?)
Some of those KStN are held by BAMA as well as being on the german docs in Russia site for freeview. Likewise some are also available via the NARA holdings placed online, but the NARA lists aren't everything held by BAMA. I've tried to annotate your first list above to show what looks to be unique to germandoc... and what's of similar date range held by BAMA.
Gary
First batch
9 – 1/1/40 (BAMA - 01/02/43)
10 – 15/11/40 (BAMA - Nil?)
11a – 1/6/42 (BAMA - 01/05/39)
21a – 1/5/40 (BAMA - 01/11/41, as KStN 21)
23 – 28/8/40 (BAMA - Nil?)
51 – 28/8/40 (BAMA 01/10/37 and 01/11/41)
54 – 24/8/40 (BAMA 01/11/41)
71 – 28/12/39
101n – 1/10/43 (BAMA 01/10/37, as 101R, and 01/12/43)
120 – 30/12/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
131c – 10/10/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
151c – 10/10/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
154V – 1/9/44 (in BAMA, not NARA)
164 – 30/12/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
166 – 30/12/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
167 – 30/12/39 (BAMA 01/02/41)
184d – 31/1/41 (in BAMA)
187 – 31/1/41 (in BAMA)
215 – 31/1/41 (in BAMA)
401 – 1/3/44 (in BAMA, not NARA)
401n – 1/10/43 (in BAMA)
403 – 1/3/44 (in BAMA, not NARA)
403n – 1/10/43 (in BAMA)
433n – 1/10/43 (in BAMA)
459n – 1/10/43 (summary totals) (in BAMA)
532 – 27/2/40 (not in BAMA?)
533 – 31/3/40 (not in BAMA till 01/07/44?)
540 – 31/3/40 (not in BAMA till 01/11/44?)
562 – 23/5/40 (not in BAMA?)
575n – 1/12/43 (summary totals) (not in BAMA?)
582n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA?)
582n – 1/12/43 (in BAMA)
590n – 1/12/43 (not in BAMA?)
613 – 1/3/42 (not in BAMA 01/11/43)
702n – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
702V – 1/9/44 (in BAMA)
711n – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
723n – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
805 – 15/2/40 (in BAMA 01/10/37 and 01/03/43)
942 – 20/5/40 (not in BAMA till 01/05/44)
1103 – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1104 – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1108 (fg) – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1113 (gp) (fg) – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1120a – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1121 (fg) – 1/4/44 (in BAMA)
1121a (gp) – 1/3/43 (in BAMA)
1144 – 29/2/40 (in BAMA 01/11/41)
1145 (gp) – 1/3/43 (in BAMA)
1309 – 3/1/40 (in BAMA 01/03/39)
1379 – 7/2/40 (in BAMA 01/03/43)
2043 – 15/3/40 (in BAMA 01/10/37)
2097 – 31/1/41 (in BAMA)
2222 (W) – 30/4/40 (not in BAMA?)
2251 – 30/11/43 (in BAMA)
5095 – 15/3/40 (not in BAMA?)
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
New batch
24 – 31/1/42 (in BAMA)
101 – 1/11/41 (not in BAMA)
101n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA)
111 – 1/2/42 (not in BAMA)
111n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
130 – 1/2/42 (not in BAMA)
130 – 1/3/43 (not in BAMA)
130n – 10/10/43 (not in BAMA)
151n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
151n – 1/12/43 (in BAMA)
161c – 1/8/40 (not in BAMA)
171n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA)
188an – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA)
188fn – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA)
Re the infantry series, have you actually found full KStN for these tables on the germandocs site, or summary info? I know 111 of Feb42 is one I've been hoping would crop up for ages, but I couldn't find it on my searches through the site.
702n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA till 01/04/44)
711n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA till 01/04/44)
723n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA till 01/04/44)
733 – 1/2/41 (not in BAMA till 01/06/44)
Similar to the above, I've seen summary figures for the Oct43 redraft of the Pio Bn, but not actual KStN tables.
1109 – 15/9/41 (in BAMA, I think)
1112 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1121 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1122a – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1123 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1124 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1162 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
I'm pretty sure I got a copy of the Recce Bn HQ from Sep41, but nothing else for that date range.
2041 – 1/3/42 (in BAMA)
7725 – 1/4/41 (in BAMA)
Gary
24 – 31/1/42 (in BAMA)
101 – 1/11/41 (not in BAMA)
101n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA)
111 – 1/2/42 (not in BAMA)
111n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
130 – 1/2/42 (not in BAMA)
130 – 1/3/43 (not in BAMA)
130n – 10/10/43 (not in BAMA)
151n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
151n – 1/12/43 (in BAMA)
161c – 1/8/40 (not in BAMA)
171n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA)
188an – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA)
188fn – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA)
Re the infantry series, have you actually found full KStN for these tables on the germandocs site, or summary info? I know 111 of Feb42 is one I've been hoping would crop up for ages, but I couldn't find it on my searches through the site.
702n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA till 01/04/44)
711n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA till 01/04/44)
723n – 1/10/43 (not in BAMA till 01/04/44)
733 – 1/2/41 (not in BAMA till 01/06/44)
Similar to the above, I've seen summary figures for the Oct43 redraft of the Pio Bn, but not actual KStN tables.
1109 – 15/9/41 (in BAMA, I think)
1112 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1121 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1122a – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1123 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1124 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
1162 – 15/9/41 (not in BAMA or Leo's Tessin list)
I'm pretty sure I got a copy of the Recce Bn HQ from Sep41, but nothing else for that date range.
2041 – 1/3/42 (in BAMA)
7725 – 1/4/41 (in BAMA)
Gary
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Gary,
You and me both. Couldn't believe when I spotted 101, 111 and 130!
111 is annotated in pencil which are presumable changes made up to 1/10/43.
Tried to upload the 4 files but seem to be too big. PM me with your email address and I will send them to you direct.
David
You and me both. Couldn't believe when I spotted 101, 111 and 130!
111 is annotated in pencil which are presumable changes made up to 1/10/43.
Tried to upload the 4 files but seem to be too big. PM me with your email address and I will send them to you direct.
David
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Gary,
Forgot to say that they are all KStNs. Those which are only summary totals are noted accordingly.
I found them all by going through every folder on the germandocs site.
David
Forgot to say that they are all KStNs. Those which are only summary totals are noted accordingly.
I found them all by going through every folder on the germandocs site.
David
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Well, David, here is my attempt to see, if I could "catch them all"KStN201 wrote: Obviously if anyone has found others it would be great to hear about them!
David
Of course, I've decided not to limit myself to KStNs only - I've included other TOE data as well. Of course, its' quality varies (some is almost unreadable Russian scribblings), but if I'll mange to find better versions of the same KStN, I'll replace the link.
This is what I've found so far in the Opis 12480:
Well, let's see, if I could "catch them all"
Not mentioned in the list by KStN201:
mass reductions of units' trains (MANY DIFFERENT KStNs affected) - 4.11.42
1108 - 1.11.41
??? Geb. Jäg. Kp. auf Fahrrad - 19.5.41
KStNs below not complete - probably amendments
303 - ???
147 - ???
305 - ???
318, 311, 320
341, 337
440
352
315, 360
712 - ???
1121 - 1.11.41
1122a - 1.12.41
1123 - 1.11.41
1124 - 1.1.41
1127 - 1.11.41
1114 - 1.11.41
addition 1122a - 1.12.42
addition 1123 - 1.11.41
addition 1124 - 1.1.41
addition 1127 - 1.11.41
1114 - 1.11.41
1148
summary Arty Regiment - 1.11.41
summary Mot. MG Coy
161c
summary Division Recon Bn-??
detailed summary Anti-tank company PAK-40
detailed summary 1148
151c - 1.2.41
131n
Org. schemes, Luftwaffe Jager Regiment - before June 1944
Anti-tank Bn z.B.V. - before 10.43
detailed summary StuG Abteilung (HQ Bty + 7-gun Bty)
summary Le Beobachtung Abteilung
changes Sturm-Kompanie
Org. schemes and summary, Pz-Gren. Regiment - 08.42
215 - 1.3.43
summary various units 4.43
Anti-tank Company, 12 88-mm guns
Replacement Bn 255 ID - 12.7.43
Org. scheme, divisional AT Coy (mot.) N.A.
detailed summary Gren. Reg. - 4.43
Org. schemes, various units ID N.A.
summary Rfile Coy - 12.5.43
1149 - 1.2.44
summary Arty Reg - 2.8.42
New batch
24 – 31/1/42
101 – 1/11/41
summary 101n – 1/10/43
111 – 1/2/42
111n – 1/10/43
130 – 1/2/42
130 – 1/3/43
130n – 10/10/43
either 151n – 1/10/43 or 151n – 1/12/43
161c – 1/8/40
171n – 1/10/43
188an – 1/10/43
188 f n - 1.10.43
702n – 1/10/43
711n – 1/10/43
723n – 1/10/43
733 – 1/2/41
1109 – 15/9/41
1112 – 15/9/41
1121 – 15/9/41
1122a – 15/9/41
1123 – 15/9/41
1124 – 15/9/41
1162 – 15/9/41
2041 – 1/3/42
7725 – 1/4/41
To be continued
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
I didn't get chance last night for much more than a quick scan through, but I think you've discovered a 'wodge' of KStN info in that file gentlemen!
I couldn't see an actual KStN for 171b, but the text from page 314 onwards seems to incorporate all the relevant details, likewise 184c, but I think I've seen that somewhere else in one of the earlier docs uploaded. Wish I'd got time to go through it all tonight, there's so much intriguing stuff in that file!
Gary
I couldn't see an actual KStN for 171b, but the text from page 314 onwards seems to incorporate all the relevant details, likewise 184c, but I think I've seen that somewhere else in one of the earlier docs uploaded. Wish I'd got time to go through it all tonight, there's so much intriguing stuff in that file!
Gary
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Gary,Gary Kennedy wrote:I didn't get chance last night for much more than a quick scan through, but I think you've discovered a 'wodge' of KStN info in that file gentlemen!
I couldn't see an actual KStN for 171b, but the text from page 314 onwards seems to incorporate all the relevant details, likewise 184c, but I think I've seen that somewhere else in one of the earlier docs uploaded. Wish I'd got time to go through it all tonight, there's so much intriguing stuff in that file!
Gary
That is the folder with 111 & 130 in it. Go to pages 113 & 120.
David
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Has anyone found the aforementioned March 1943 version of KStN 130, as well as the 15/9/41 issues of KStN in the 1100-1199 range?
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Hi Dokis79,
the 15 september 41 KStNs are in RDP 12454 A 161
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4
I hope this was useful for you
Max
the 15 september 41 KStNs are in RDP 12454 A 161
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/4
I hope this was useful for you
Max
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Hi again,
the 130 3.43 is in 12480 A 43, as correction in red to the 42 version
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6
I hope this was useful for you
Max
the 130 3.43 is in 12480 A 43, as correction in red to the 42 version
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/6
I hope this was useful for you
Max
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Thanks.
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Here's a new one, in Russian: 1140 - 1/4/43
There are other KStN in the above lists I still haven't been able to find, has anyone found any of the following?
There are other KStN in the above lists I still haven't been able to find, has anyone found any of the following?
- 401n 1/10/43
- 702n – 1/10/43
- 711n – 1/10/43
- 723n – 1/10/43
- 733 – 1/2/41
- 7725 – 1/4/41
- 24 – 31/1/42
- 151n – 1/12/43 and 1/10/43 (there's one above that is either 1/10/43 or 1/12/43, maybe it's the one that was being referenced?)
- 2251 – 30/11/43
- 1121a (gp) – 1/3/43
- 1120a – 1/4/44
- 1103 – 1/4/44
- 10 – 15/11/40
- 11a – 1/6/42
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Hi Dokis,
This is what I found in my files:
• 401n 1/10/43 12451 A 126
• 702n – 1/10/43 12480 A 43 p 338 and 12466 A 51 p 100
• 711n – 1/10/43 12480 A 43 p 339 and 12466 A 51 p 103
• 723n – 1/10/43 12480 A 43 p 340 and 12466 A 51 p 103
• 733 – 1/2/41 12477 A 480 p 34
• 7725 – 1/4/41 12480 A 185 p 241
• 24 – 31/1/42 ?? in T 283 R 122 KStN 24 1/02/42 and Sturmpanzer
• 151n – 1/12/43 and 1/10/43 (there's one above that is either 1/10/43 or 1/12/43, maybe it's the one that was being referenced?) vers 10/43 12480 A 47 p 51
• 2251 – 30/11/43 ??
• 1121a (gp) – 1/3/43 12451 A 109 p 124
• 1120a – 1/4/44 12451 A 143
• 1103 – 1/4/44 12451 A 141
• 10 – 15/11/40 12451 A 116
• 11a – 1/6/42 ?? in 12451 A 125 KStN 11 1/06/42
I hope this was useful for you
All the best
Max
This is what I found in my files:
• 401n 1/10/43 12451 A 126
• 702n – 1/10/43 12480 A 43 p 338 and 12466 A 51 p 100
• 711n – 1/10/43 12480 A 43 p 339 and 12466 A 51 p 103
• 723n – 1/10/43 12480 A 43 p 340 and 12466 A 51 p 103
• 733 – 1/2/41 12477 A 480 p 34
• 7725 – 1/4/41 12480 A 185 p 241
• 24 – 31/1/42 ?? in T 283 R 122 KStN 24 1/02/42 and Sturmpanzer
• 151n – 1/12/43 and 1/10/43 (there's one above that is either 1/10/43 or 1/12/43, maybe it's the one that was being referenced?) vers 10/43 12480 A 47 p 51
• 2251 – 30/11/43 ??
• 1121a (gp) – 1/3/43 12451 A 109 p 124
• 1120a – 1/4/44 12451 A 143
• 1103 – 1/4/44 12451 A 141
• 10 – 15/11/40 12451 A 116
• 11a – 1/6/42 ?? in 12451 A 125 KStN 11 1/06/42
I hope this was useful for you
All the best
Max
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Thanks!
On 702n, 711n, 723n: the personnel totals do not match the numbers given in the 3rd panzer army file. I have another document which shows different numbers for the trains than these KStN have. Are we sure this is indeed 711n 1/10/43? It doesn't match the totals of the 1/4/44 issue either, and I couldn't find any amendments in AHM that would explain the discrepancies.
I wonder if it could instead be the 1.11.43 version of the 702b, 711b, 723 KStN, which afaik we do not have either, maybe the wrong name was given or something?
On 151n - it looks like the version I had which I thought was 1/12/43 was in fact 1/10/43. Is this supposed to be the 1/12/43 version? I could spot a small difference (addition of a stretchbearer in the MG platoon).
On 702n, 711n, 723n: the personnel totals do not match the numbers given in the 3rd panzer army file. I have another document which shows different numbers for the trains than these KStN have. Are we sure this is indeed 711n 1/10/43? It doesn't match the totals of the 1/4/44 issue either, and I couldn't find any amendments in AHM that would explain the discrepancies.
I wonder if it could instead be the 1.11.43 version of the 702b, 711b, 723 KStN, which afaik we do not have either, maybe the wrong name was given or something?
On 151n - it looks like the version I had which I thought was 1/12/43 was in fact 1/10/43. Is this supposed to be the 1/12/43 version? I could spot a small difference (addition of a stretchbearer in the MG platoon).
Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940
Hi Dokis,
for the Pioneer KStN I did not check the date, often missing in the document, as you noticed it is hard to a consolidate a KStN attribution with this not standard documents, you must always cross control with other sources, can you tell me at which Pz army 3 document do you refer and where is from the interesting file you are publishing?
For the MG company it is sure that in 12480 A 47 p 49-52 we have the October 43 version, the version you point out as December 43 has 205 men as total, vs 202 of the October version and 208 of the official December version in BAMA that I saw, in BAMA we have + 1 man in each MG plat and in the HQ and one less man in the mortar platoon, and this document is clearly labelled as 151 c and a KStN exactly the same but with another description (MG company for a Fusilier Batt) is here:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8
I don’t know if this is modified 151n December, the differences are minimal, or it is a different KStN.
I hope this was useful for you
Max
for the Pioneer KStN I did not check the date, often missing in the document, as you noticed it is hard to a consolidate a KStN attribution with this not standard documents, you must always cross control with other sources, can you tell me at which Pz army 3 document do you refer and where is from the interesting file you are publishing?
For the MG company it is sure that in 12480 A 47 p 49-52 we have the October 43 version, the version you point out as December 43 has 205 men as total, vs 202 of the October version and 208 of the official December version in BAMA that I saw, in BAMA we have + 1 man in each MG plat and in the HQ and one less man in the mortar platoon, and this document is clearly labelled as 151 c and a KStN exactly the same but with another description (MG company for a Fusilier Batt) is here:
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... ect/zoom/8
I don’t know if this is modified 151n December, the differences are minimal, or it is a different KStN.
I hope this was useful for you
Max