Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

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Miles Krogfus
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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

Post by Miles Krogfus » 16 Sep 2016 03:23

December 1,1943 Obersturmfuhrer Wolfgang Rohder CO of Das Reich's 3/SS-Stu.Gesch.Abt. 2 received the RK for his AG battery's actions that summer. Especially in the Kalinin area July 8th and 14th, Stepanowka on the Mius July 31st, and the Charkow area August 28th. From July 5,1943 his battery shot 154 Soviet tanks. Rohder himself shot 23.

SS-Oscha. Emil Seibold 0f the 8th Panzer Company received the DK in Gold recommended for him on December 16,1943, only rewarded on June 6,1944 for "seit Beginn der Sommeroffensive am 7.7.43 als Panzerkommandant insgesamt 27 feindliche Panzerkampwagen vernichtet, darunter 24 T34, 1KW 1 and 2 Sturmgeschutze . . ." October 25,1943 is his last combat mentioned in the recommendation.

Other 2 SS Panzer men awarded the DK or RK for their summer actions lack complete totals of victories for the summer/fall as the ones I have given.

EugE
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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

Post by EugE » 17 Sep 2016 20:10

Cult Icon wrote: ~1,200 in the Soviet Union vs. 300 write-offs
Can you specify the period please?
Cult Icon wrote: vs. 77 write-offs
It is doubtfull.
Cult Icon wrote:-391 from July 30-August 21, 1943 (Mius battles, 4th Battle of Kharkov,)
At whole the III PzKorps claimed 530 anemy tanks & 9 SU 122/152 from August 8th till 21th. Total loss during Mius fight is - 20.07 - 02.08 PzKpfw III lg. - 7, PzKpfw IV kz/lg. - -/3, Stug G40. - -, Pz Kpfw T 34-747r - 4, Art.Beob.Pz III - 1.
Cult Icon wrote:-463 kills claimed in August 22-Sept 2 ( retreat to the Dnepr)
It is doubtfull. Because the Soviet units hadn't so many tanks at DR sector. If we take amount from Miles info and calculate 839( July 5 - September 23,1943)-448(Kursk)-98(Mius)=293 would be for August and September 23th.
Cult Icon wrote:-268 kills claimed in Sept 1943 (Walki)
See above.
Cult Icon wrote: 300 write-offs
77 write-offs
46 write-offs
~200 Allied tanks in Normandy vs. 105 write offs
~224 Allied tanks in Ardennes vs. 68 write-offs
~530 against the Soviets vs. ~200 write-offs
Write-offs sum total is over 700.
Look for it and you will find it...

Miles Krogfus
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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

Post by Miles Krogfus » 16 Jul 2017 12:38

Wehrmachtbericht entries from August 27 and November 6,1943. The 8.5 by 12 cm postcard given me by Otto Weidinger commemorates the 2000th armor kill by Das Reich in 1943. Hans Soretz in his Tiger scored number 2000.
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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

Post by Cult Icon » 19 Mar 2018 02:01

In reading unit histories (August-Oct 1943) G.D., 3.Pz, 23.Pz, 5.SS, 3.SS, and Forcyck's Dnepr it seems that "Das Reich" had an unusual fighting experience that caused it to register such a high number of kills. The other unit histories have some minor tactical successes but they are few and far in between. This period was a time of retreat and weakening for their formations. Das Reich seemed to have retreated in better order than most.

German operational tank numbers in 1943 bottomed to around 700 on Sept 1943 (not counting assault guns). Das Reich had an impressive 210+ tanks and a AG battalion on top of that in Sept 1943. Operational numbers put it at over 10% of german tank strength on the Eastern Front for that period.

I am interesting if anyone really understands the operations of 2.SS during this time period and how its corps and Army commanders perceived it?

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

Post by Cult Icon » 06 Apr 2018 15:07

Mark Yerger, in a very old post stated that 'Das Reich' had claimed an unbelievable 4,800 tank kills- the highest of german forces and probably the highest in WW2.

In looking around, a disproportionate amount of awards (around 35 RK's) in 1943. (a bit over 2,000 tank kills). In contrast, only around 5 were awarded for the ardennes offensive and around a dozen for normandy.

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