30. Schnelle Brigade

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

#16

Post by Leo Niehorster » 03 Jul 2017, 15:49

OK. Since there seems to be some doubt as to the exact relationship between the corps, brigade, and regiment, I have added a footnote to the Gren.Rgt. zbV 752 symbol as follows:
"It is possible that the regiment was assigned directly to LXXXIVth Corps to defend Sector J2, and the 30th Brigade was in the area as corps reserve."

If anybody finds document(s) one way or the other, I would appreciate them dropping me a note, and I shall make the corresponding corrections for the edification of all.

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Richard Anderson
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

#17

Post by Richard Anderson » 03 Jul 2017, 18:16

jpz4 wrote:Thanks for the explanation Leo. As for subordination, the regiment was specifically sent to this sector to take control of it and allow it to be transferred to LXXXIV.A.K. (It had been a problem area for years) The coastal sector was its responsibility and it provided the Führungsstab. AOK7 had requested to have the Brigade Stab carry out this task, but this was denied by OKH.

As a result the Regiment had the most important task in the area. Basically it seems that the Brigade was simply stationed in the area and I've not found any documents that offically link the two units. Have you? Without it I seriousy doubt either one was really subordinated to the other. I think this discussion is largely academic.
Yes, again I suspect the difference was with regards to subordination. The regiment had defense responsibility for the sector at all times, but the brigade only in the event of invasion since it was technically a training unit. However, like the other training units with a dual occupation role, the distinction was somewhat academic and the pattern followed during the spring and summer was to transfer them to the Feldheer.
@ Richard, I've found the same references to the Pi. and Art. I'm still not sure about the reason but I will keep looking. Might have been a simple matter of confusion. I'll keep looking into these unit, but I intend to finish my work on the eastern infantry battalions first.
Very good, yes it is one of the more confusing of many confusing units. You are welcome to my unpublished draft if you like, send me a PM.
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American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
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Leo Niehorster
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

#18

Post by Leo Niehorster » 03 Jul 2017, 19:27

@ Rich
Are you sure about 30th Brigade being transferred to the Feldheer as late as 27 July 1944?
I.a.w. Tessin, it changed its designation from Reserve-Radfahr-Regiment 30 to Schnelle Brigade 30 on 07 March 1943, and was under Heerestruppe from 1943 on. Usually, the "reserve" adjective was dropped when transferring from Ersatzheer to the Feldheer.

@ jpz4/Niels
Thanks for the copies. A problem as I see it is that the note indicating OKH denial to use the 30th Brigade for the Coastal Defense Zone J2 was in February 1944. Was this denial revised or not at a later date? Note that ALL other coastal defense zone were defended by divisions.
My pigheadedness here is based solely on the above mentioned hierarchy issue. :wink:

Tessin is by no means infallible, but he does not list a Sicherungsregiment 251, merely the Sicherungsbataillon 521.:
"Sicherungs-Btl. 521 * Winter 1943/44; Juni 1944 in der Normandie vernichtet; 17.12.1944 formelle Auflösung beantragt, da Verbelib unbekannt.
U: AOK 7 Nordwestfrankreich (Granville); 19.06.1944 Korps-Reserve des LXXXIV. AK bei St. Lô.
E: 7 Freising, WK VII


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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

#19

Post by Richard Anderson » 03 Jul 2017, 20:24

Leo Niehorster wrote:@ Rich
Are you sure about 30th Brigade being transferred to the Feldheer as late as 27 July 1944?
I.a.w. Tessin, it changed its designation from Reserve-Radfahr-Regiment 30 to Schnelle Brigade 30 on 07 March 1943, and was under Heerestruppe from 1943 on. Usually, the "reserve" adjective was dropped when transferring from Ersatzheer to the Feldheer.
Leo, the order is in IWM MI14-136-2-86. The order, dated 27 July 1944, transferred various reserve elements to the Feldheer and directly named LXII Res. Korps, LXVI Res.Korps, three of the five Reserve Divisions in the West: 157., 182. and 189. Res.D., the staffs of 20. and 30. schnelle Brigade, Schnelle abteilungen 503-507, 509-513, 517, 518, 602 and 608 and Res. Heers-Flak abt. 276 and 278. Mind you, the order simply confirmed something which had already occurred. Note its "twin", Schnelle-Brigade 20. was under the administrative control of the Führungs-und Ausbildungsstabes Niederlande (Command and Training Staff Netherlands). I suspect that like the Reserve-Divisionen and various other similar smaller units, the Brigaden continued with a primary mission of training and occupation security until the invasion. Following D-Day, in mid June, Hitler verbally ordered that all replacement drafts from Ersatzheer units in the west for units in the east be halted, an order that was confirmed in writing on 17 June. In effect that order placed all the personnel of the Reserve-Divisionen, about 72,000 at the disposal of Ob. West. That was followed on 2 July by the transfer of three of the Reserve divisions to the Feldheer, with the remainder following by the end of the month.
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Leo Niehorster
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

#20

Post by Leo Niehorster » 03 Jul 2017, 22:13

OK. I'm wrong. :oops:
The Kriegsgliederung des Feldheeres, Vol. II [OKH/Gen.St.d.H./Org.Abt./Nr.I/1300/44 G.Kdos.Chefs. ]* dated 06.06.1944, shows the Schnelle Brigade 20 and Schnelle Brigade 30 on page 25, between 233. Res.Pz.Div. and sonstige Res. Einheiten.

@ Rich
Many thanks for the order info.
[Tessin does show that the Res.H.Flak-Abt. 276 and 278 were both transferred to the Feldheer on 03.08.44; and that the 157th and 182nd Reserve Divisions were transferred to the Feldheer on 27.07.44 and 30.07.44, respectively. The 157. Reserve-Division survived Normandy and was redesignated as 157. Jäger-Division on 01.09.44.] No date given for the transfer of the 189.Reserve-Division, which was destroyed by the Allied invasion in south France. Its remnants used to raise the 189. Infanterie-Division on 08.10.44.] Unfortunately Tessin makes no mention of any transfer to the Feldheer of the two brigades.

*) Source: NARA T78R409_H1_104.1
Last edited by Leo Niehorster on 03 Jul 2017, 22:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

#21

Post by Richard Anderson » 03 Jul 2017, 22:25

Leo Niehorster wrote: Note that the brigade is commanded by a lieutenant general, and the regiment by a colonel. That might have been awkward.
I thought Freiherr von und zu Aufseß was an Oberstleutnant and not a Generalleutnant?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
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Leo Niehorster
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

#22

Post by Leo Niehorster » 03 Jul 2017, 22:35

You're right. Got confused with the Festungskommandant Cherbourg. Sorry. Comment duly deleted.
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

#23

Post by jpz4 » 18 Feb 2019, 16:07

Richard Anderson wrote:
03 Jul 2017, 20:24
Leo Niehorster wrote:@ Rich
Are you sure about 30th Brigade being transferred to the Feldheer as late as 27 July 1944?
I.a.w. Tessin, it changed its designation from Reserve-Radfahr-Regiment 30 to Schnelle Brigade 30 on 07 March 1943, and was under Heerestruppe from 1943 on. Usually, the "reserve" adjective was dropped when transferring from Ersatzheer to the Feldheer.
Leo, the order is in IWM MI14-136-2-86. The order, dated 27 July 1944, transferred various reserve elements to the Feldheer and directly named LXII Res. Korps, LXVI Res.Korps, three of the five Reserve Divisions in the West: 157., 182. and 189. Res.D., the staffs of 20. and 30. schnelle Brigade, Schnelle abteilungen 503-507, 509-513, 517, 518, 602 and 608 and Res. Heers-Flak abt. 276 and 278.
FWIW, the same order can be found in T78 R526 F000430

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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

#24

Post by jpz4 » 25 Jun 2019, 15:56

FWIW, I've found a likely reason for the transfer to the Feldheer: on 25 May the Chef H.Rüst u. B.d.E requested permission to transfer all 14 Schnelle Abten. to the Feldheer. Reason: the personnel trained by these units no longer met the Feldheer's requirements for recon units. At this point it was still intended to send one Schwadron per battalion back to the Reich to build new training units, but I'm not sure if that was ever carried out for any of the units involved.

The order does show that even before D-Day the intention had already been to transfer the units to the Feldheer. When this was put into action remains to be determined….

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