5. Leichte Division

[yantaylor]

Hi everyone.

I am currently discussing 5. Leichte Division with an ex-US Army officer who served in German during the 1970s.
His passion is German divisions and their commanders from WW2.
I have showed him my list of commanders for the 5. Leichte Division, as below;

General der Panzertruppen Hans Freiherr Von Funck 1st January 1941 to 7th February 1941
Generalleutnant Johannes Streich 7th February 1941 to 16th May 1941
Generalleutnant Karl Böttcher 16th May 1941 to 1st August 1941

But he states that the commanders were in this order;

General der Panzertruppe Hans Freiherr von Funck
Generalleutnant Karl Boettcher [1 week]
Generalleutnant Johannes Streich
Generalleutnant Heinrich Kirchheim
Generalleutnant Johann von Ravenstein

Which is totally different from mine.
I also have a different date for the 5. Leichte being converted into the 21 Panzer;
My date is 1st August 1941, but he says it was 1st October 1941.

Can anyone tell me for certain who is correct here?

Regards
Yan.

[mika1606]

Hi,
have a look here:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 5leDiv.htm

BR, Gerhard

[yantaylor]

Hi Mika, that data matches mine to a tee, so I wonder were my American friend got his data from.
Thanks for your help.
Yan.

[mika1606]

Hi Yan,

Tomorrow I will have a look into the book of the division for further details.

BR, Gerhard

[yantaylor]

I will appreciate that Mika, thank you.
Regards
Yan.

[Hoplophile]

To further complicate matters, Dr. Niehorster gives a date of 14 July 1941 for the conversion of the 5th Light Division (Motorized) into the 21st Armored Division.

http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... pz-21.html

[Prosper Vandenbroucke]

I Yan
Have a look over here:
http://www.axishistory.com/books/150-ge ... e-division
and also here:
http://dak.webseiten.cc/einheiten/heer/ ... -division/
Kindly regards from Belgium
Prosper

[yantaylor]

Bloody hell! Guys, every site has different dates and Officer's in different orders.
Great to see people getting involved in this and I hope we can get to the bottom of this mystery.

Nice to hear from you Prosper, not been in touch for a while, I hope you are well.
Yan.

[Richard Anderson]

Generalleutnant Heinrich Kirchheim

Kirchheim commanded KG 5.le. for the assault on Ras el Madauer, 16-30 May 1941. He did not command the division.

To further complicate matters, Dr. Niehorster gives a date of 14 August 1941 for the conversion of the 5th Light Division (Motorized) into the 21st Armored Division.

Actually he gives 14 July, but that was the date those units were assigned to 5. le. The division was renamed offically later.

[Prosper Vandenbroucke]

Bloody hell! Guys, every site has different dates and Officer's in different orders.
Great to see people getting involved in this and I hope we can get to the bottom of this mystery.

Nice to hear from you Prosper, not been in touch for a while, I hope you are well.
Yan.

Hello Yan,
Yes I'm very well, thank you. Hoping that's' the same for you.
Kindly Regards
Prosper

[yantaylor]

Generalleutnant Heinrich Kirchheim

Kirchheim commanded KG 5.le. for the assault on Ras el Madauer, 16-30 May 1941. He did not command the division.

To further complicate matters, Dr. Niehorster gives a date of 14 August 1941 for the conversion of the 5th Light Division (Motorized) into the 21st Armored Division.

Actually he gives 14 July, but that was the date those units were assigned to 5. le. The division was renamed offically later.

Hi Richard, good to converse with you again.
I found this about that Kampfgruppe;

Generalleutnant Johannes Streich, commander of the 5. leichte Division. On April 30th he commanded him a Kampfgruppe consisting of the great forces of Streich, the Italian divisions of the Brescia and Bologna divisions, the MG-Bataillon 2 and 8 and other support units to conduct an attack on Ras el Madauer, The highest point of the defensive perimeter of Tobruk. Despite this success, Rommel's attempt to take Tobruk failed at around 1400 German and Italian soldiers, dead, injured, or missing. The battle ended on May 5. Although Kirchheim had replaced Streich at the helm of the 5.leichte Division, he could only keep it until the arrival of the designated commander General von Ravenstein on May 31st.

Regards
Ian.

[histan]

Hi

Firstly, it is best to ignore the internet sites - they generally repeat the mistakes in the published secondary sources.

Here is a list of the "official" commanders of 5. le. Div, appointed or tasked by the HPA, and the "effective" or mit Wirkung vom dates during which these officers were appointed or tasked:

Generalmajor von Funck Kommandeur 21.01.1941 - 14.02.1941
Generalmajor Streich Kommandeur 14.02.1941 - 16.05.1941
Oberst von Ravenstein mdFb 16.05.1941 - 20.05.1941
Generalmajor von Ravenstein Kommandeur 20.05.941 - 01.08.1941

These dates are all taken from HPA appointments lists, etc.

It was formed in January 1941 with the date for von Funck assuming command given in his Beurteilung as 21.01.1941. It is shown in the Stellenbesetzung stand 25.01.1941 as zV OKH with von Funck as Kdr.

It was selected to form the nucleus of a "Sperrverband Lybien" and von Funck sent to North Africa to assess the situation. His report caused consternation and it was decided that he would not go North Africa. Instead Rommel was selected (Halder diary 03.02.1941) and he left 7. Pz.Div. and reported to OKH for briefings etc on 07.02.1941 (Halder diary 07.02.1941) and von Funck tasked with leading 7. Pz.Div. (mdFb) and Streich selected to command 5. le. Div. in his place. The date for these changes is generally accepted as 07.02.1941 (Veit Scherzer, and Streich's appointment (ernannt) as Generalmajor 07.02.1941).

These command changes were made effective (mit Wirkung vom) from 14.02.1941 in an HPA appointments list Nr.1080/41 g Ag P 1/Ref.9 dated 19.02.1941

Karl Böttcher did not command between von Funck and Streich. This is a mistake based on a typo in Keilig that gives a date of 01.02.1941 instead of 01.12.1941 - Keilig states 21. Pz.Div. and not 5. le. Div which should have provided a clue.

David Irving in "The Trail of the Fox" writes:
"One day at the end of May he telephoned Streich's command truck.
'Streich' he said 'I have asked for you to be replaced. You will continue in command until your replacement arrives.'
........
His successor was Major General Johannes von Ravenstein, who arrived on 31 May.
..........
Streich left Africa a few days later.."

The date was more like the middle of May. The PV appointing von Ravenstein Kommandeur 5. le. Div. and appointing him Generalmajor was dated 23.05.1941 and at that time he was already listed as mdFb 5. le. Div.

KTB for DAK doesn't seem to offer any help - it doesn't seem to mention a change in command in the middle of May.

It was quite usual for an officer who was being placed in the FR to remain in command until his replacement arrived.

The generally accepted date for its renumbering as 21. Pz.Div. is 01.08.1941(Tessin and Scherzer)

Regards

John

[yantaylor]

Thank you very much John.
Regards.
Yan.

[yantaylor]

Hi John, I can accept the typo regarding Boettcher, but what about the short period of command done by Kirchheim. Rommel relieved Stretch because of his failure at Tobruk. He replaced him with Kirchheim who fared little better, lasting only about four days until Rommel relieved him as well, replacing him with Von Ravenstein.

I read this in the book by Samuel W. Mitcham called, Panzer Legions.

Regards
Yan.

[Brevity]

Hi

Firstly, it is best to ignore the internet sites - they generally repeat the mistakes in the published secondary sources.

Here is a list of the "official" commanders of 5. le. Div, appointed or tasked by the HPA, and the "effective" or mit Wirkung vom dates during which these officers were appointed or tasked:

Generalmajor von Funck Kommandeur 21.01.1941 - 14.02.1941
Generalmajor Streich Kommandeur 14.02.1941 - 16.05.1941
Oberst von Ravenstein mdFb 16.05.1941 - 20.05.1941
Generalmajor von Ravenstein Kommandeur 20.05.941 - 01.08.1941

These dates are all taken from HPA appointments lists, etc.

It was formed in January 1941 with the date for von Funck assuming command given in his Beurteilung as 21.01.1941. It is shown in the Stellenbesetzung stand 25.01.1941 as zV OKH with von Funck as Kdr.

It was selected to form the nucleus of a "Sperrverband Lybien" and von Funck sent to North Africa to assess the situation. His report caused consternation and it was decided that he would not go North Africa. Instead Rommel was selected (Halder diary 03.02.1941) and he left 7. Pz.Div. and reported to OKH for briefings etc on 07.02.1941 (Halder diary 07.02.1941) and von Funck tasked with leading 7. Pz.Div. (mdFb) and Streich selected to command 5. le. Div. in his place. The date for these changes is generally accepted as 07.02.1941 (Veit Scherzer, and Streich's appointment (ernannt) as Generalmajor 07.02.1941).

These command changes were made effective (mit Wirkung vom) from 14.02.1941 in an HPA appointments list Nr.1080/41 g Ag P 1/Ref.9 dated 19.02.1941

Karl Böttcher did not command between von Funck and Streich. This is a mistake based on a typo in Keilig that gives a date of 01.02.1941 instead of 01.12.1941 - Keilig states 21. Pz.Div. and not 5. le. Div which should have provided a clue.

David Irving in "The Trail of the Fox" writes:
"One day at the end of May he telephoned Streich's command truck.
'Streich' he said 'I have asked for you to be replaced. You will continue in command until your replacement arrives.'
........
His successor was Major General Johannes von Ravenstein, who arrived on 31 May.
..........
Streich left Africa a few days later.."

The date was more like the middle of May. The PV appointing von Ravenstein Kommandeur 5. le. Div. and appointing him Generalmajor was dated 23.05.1941 and at that time he was already listed as mdFb 5. le. Div.

KTB for DAK doesn't seem to offer any help - it doesn't seem to mention a change in command in the middle of May.

It was quite usual for an officer who was being placed in the FR to remain in command until his replacement arrived.

The generally accepted date for its renumbering as 21. Pz.Div. is 01.08.1941(Tessin and Scherzer)

Regards

John

This is a good post however, it seems v. Ravenstein took over later, because the war diary of II./PR5 gives the following

Wednesday, 4 June - General Streich, who led the 5. le. Div during the liberation of Cyrenaika, gives up the command of the division on this day / these days ? ("Gen.Streich, unter dessen Fuehrung die 5.le.Div. die Cyrenaika befreit hat, gibt in diesen Tagen die Fuehrung der Div. ab")

Sunday, 8 June - Divisional daily order arrives, which states General v.Ravenstein is a new commander ("Es trifft der Tagesbefehl der 5.le.Div. ein, wonach Generalmajor v.Ravenstein die Fuehrung der Division uebernimmt.")


Also it doesn't seem Kirchheim ever commanded the division . Rommel put him in charge of Kampfgruppe for the 1 May attack that was sometimes called "Division Kirchheim", hence the confusion. This was a deliberate attempt to sideline Streich, since Rommel didn't like him anymore.