5. Leichte Division
Re: 5. Leichte Division
Hi Brevity
Thanks for this post - it does fill in the gap with some primary source material - Irving doesn't seem to provide any reference source for his date of 31.05.1941.
So the actual handover between Streich and von Ravenstein looks like taking place sometime in the first week of June
I agree - there doesn't seem to be any evidence from primary sources or from generally reliable secondary sources that Kirchheim took over command of the division from Streich.
Regards
John
PS I think it shows what can be done when we combine our information
Thanks for this post - it does fill in the gap with some primary source material - Irving doesn't seem to provide any reference source for his date of 31.05.1941.
So the actual handover between Streich and von Ravenstein looks like taking place sometime in the first week of June
I agree - there doesn't seem to be any evidence from primary sources or from generally reliable secondary sources that Kirchheim took over command of the division from Streich.
Regards
John
PS I think it shows what can be done when we combine our information
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Re: 5. Leichte Division
Exactly. He didn't. I may not have been clear. He did not "command" 5. le. He commanded an operational task force - a KG - including elements of 5. le. and other German and Italian units IIRC, specifically formed for the assault on Ras el Madauer, 16-30 May 1941. He never commanded 5. le. and evidently his performance at Ras el Madauer was indifferent enough that Rommel never employed him in other than staff positions thereafter.histan wrote:I agree - there doesn't seem to be any evidence from primary sources or from generally reliable secondary sources that Kirchheim took over command of the division from Streich.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell
Re: 5. Leichte Division
I think that you guys have virtually cracked this and that Kirchheim was not even an acting commander of the 5. le.
Great work!
Regards
Yan.
Great work!
Regards
Yan.
Re: 5. Leichte Division
OK, I have two dates for the conversion of the 5. le. to the 21. Pz. and these are;
1st August 1941 - or - 1st October 1941
If it is the latter, then some one must have took over the 5. le. from 1st August 1941 to 1st October 1941, as Von Ravenstein's time as divisional commander ends on 1st August.
Regards
Yan.
1st August 1941 - or - 1st October 1941
If it is the latter, then some one must have took over the 5. le. from 1st August 1941 to 1st October 1941, as Von Ravenstein's time as divisional commander ends on 1st August.
Regards
Yan.
Re: 5. Leichte Division
It was 1 August 1941 and von Ravenstein was in command at the time and stayed in command [of 21 Pz Div] until he was captured.
Regards
John
Regards
John
Re: 5. Leichte Division
Thanks to all of for your input.
Regards
Yan.
Regards
Yan.
Re: 5. Leichte Division
From a 5 Leicht Division album in my collection. Probably a long shot but does anyone recognise the commanding officer in this photo.
Cheers,
Larry
Cheers,
Larry
Re: 5. Leichte Division
Hi Larry,
I do not think that this would be possible.
The pic is showing a scenario in winter time somewhere in Russia.
The 5. Leichte Division was never in Russia.
If - it could be the 5. leichte Infanterie-Division.
BR, Gerhard
I do not think that this would be possible.
The pic is showing a scenario in winter time somewhere in Russia.
The 5. Leichte Division was never in Russia.
If - it could be the 5. leichte Infanterie-Division.
BR, Gerhard
Re: 5. Leichte Division
Hi Gerhard,
I thought they were the same division. Thanks for the correction.
Cheers,
Larry
I thought they were the same division. Thanks for the correction.
Cheers,
Larry
Re: 5. Leichte Division
So, John, are these the new commanders' dates according to what you have?
Streich to 4-6-41
then Ravenstein?
and Kirchheim wasn't mFb at all?
All these contradictory sources are really confusing but you usually have the straight dope. Appreciate what you can tell us.
Best,
Bill in Cleveland
Streich to 4-6-41
then Ravenstein?
and Kirchheim wasn't mFb at all?
All these contradictory sources are really confusing but you usually have the straight dope. Appreciate what you can tell us.
Best,
Bill in Cleveland
Re: 5. Leichte Division
Hi Bill
I am not sure of the actual date that von Ravenstein took over, only that it was some time in the first week of June - maybe 4th maybe 8th or somtime in between.
It looks like that there are two myths about the Afrika Korps that have been perpetuated by at least one highly unreliable but profligate author:
First is that Ferdinand Schaal actually commanded DAK in early September 1941
Second is that Kirchheim replaced Streich as commander of 5 le Div with a date of 16.05.194 being quoted.
As Richard pointed out above, Kirchheim commanded Gruppe Kirchheim (called that in the DAK KTB) which contained significant elements of 5 le Div.
Regards
John
I am not sure of the actual date that von Ravenstein took over, only that it was some time in the first week of June - maybe 4th maybe 8th or somtime in between.
It looks like that there are two myths about the Afrika Korps that have been perpetuated by at least one highly unreliable but profligate author:
First is that Ferdinand Schaal actually commanded DAK in early September 1941
Second is that Kirchheim replaced Streich as commander of 5 le Div with a date of 16.05.194 being quoted.
As Richard pointed out above, Kirchheim commanded Gruppe Kirchheim (called that in the DAK KTB) which contained significant elements of 5 le Div.
Regards
John
Re: 5. Leichte Division
Thanks, John. Appreciate it. And I know just which author you're referring to. After his original book about the divisions was found to have a lot of holes, a compadre of mine called him and told him about Tessin- he had never heard of it and said he'd have to do it all over again, better. His later work supposedly is. But as to the commanders, which Tessin doesn't provide, I have no idea where he got his data.
Almost the weekend- enjoy.
Best.
Bill in Cleveland
Almost the weekend- enjoy.
Best.
Bill in Cleveland
Re: 5. Leichte Division
It is a pity that the early KTB of the division is lost, but some things are murky even during periods for which a KTB exists. Does anybody know when GM Bismarck was wounded and replaced by Oberst Bruer for the first time (not when Bismarck died)? He returned on 20.08.1942, but I did not found any text passage that mentioned his departure. I'm also missing any original info on the last change of command from GM Hildebrandt to Oberst Hülsen, although I know that the official date was 25.04.1943.
There are times in history when staying neutral means taking sides.
Re: 5. Leichte Division
The KTB Ia for 5.lei-Div/21.Pz-Div 18 February - 15 September 1941 and the KTB Ib for 5.lei-Div 27 January - 18 June 1941 exist. It is yet another of those mysterious myths going around that they were lost.askropp wrote:It is a pity that the early KTB of the division is lost, but some things are murky even during periods for which a KTB exists.
Re: 5. Leichte Division
I am taken aback! Could you tell us on which NARA roll it is to be found?
There are times in history when staying neutral means taking sides.