5. Leichte Division

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histan
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#16

Post by histan » 20 Aug 2017, 22:03

Hi Brevity

Thanks for this post - it does fill in the gap with some primary source material - Irving doesn't seem to provide any reference source for his date of 31.05.1941.

So the actual handover between Streich and von Ravenstein looks like taking place sometime in the first week of June

I agree - there doesn't seem to be any evidence from primary sources or from generally reliable secondary sources that Kirchheim took over command of the division from Streich.

Regards

John

PS I think it shows what can be done when we combine our information

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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#17

Post by Richard Anderson » 21 Aug 2017, 05:00

histan wrote:I agree - there doesn't seem to be any evidence from primary sources or from generally reliable secondary sources that Kirchheim took over command of the division from Streich.
Exactly. He didn't. I may not have been clear. He did not "command" 5. le. He commanded an operational task force - a KG - including elements of 5. le. and other German and Italian units IIRC, specifically formed for the assault on Ras el Madauer, 16-30 May 1941. He never commanded 5. le. and evidently his performance at Ras el Madauer was indifferent enough that Rommel never employed him in other than staff positions thereafter.
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yantaylor
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#18

Post by yantaylor » 21 Aug 2017, 12:58

I think that you guys have virtually cracked this and that Kirchheim was not even an acting commander of the 5. le.
Great work!
Regards
Yan.

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yantaylor
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#19

Post by yantaylor » 21 Aug 2017, 17:26

OK, I have two dates for the conversion of the 5. le. to the 21. Pz. and these are;
1st August 1941 - or - 1st October 1941
If it is the latter, then some one must have took over the 5. le. from 1st August 1941 to 1st October 1941, as Von Ravenstein's time as divisional commander ends on 1st August.

Regards
Yan.

histan
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#20

Post by histan » 21 Aug 2017, 22:32

It was 1 August 1941 and von Ravenstein was in command at the time and stayed in command [of 21 Pz Div] until he was captured.

Regards

John

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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#21

Post by yantaylor » 22 Aug 2017, 17:03

Thanks to all of for your input.
Regards
Yan.

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Larrister
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#22

Post by Larrister » 22 Aug 2017, 22:22

From a 5 Leicht Division album in my collection. Probably a long shot but does anyone recognise the commanding officer in this photo.

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Larry
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mika1606
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#23

Post by mika1606 » 22 Aug 2017, 23:30

Hi Larry,

I do not think that this would be possible.

The pic is showing a scenario in winter time somewhere in Russia.

The 5. Leichte Division was never in Russia.

If - it could be the 5. leichte Infanterie-Division.

BR, Gerhard

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Larrister
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#24

Post by Larrister » 23 Aug 2017, 08:59

Hi Gerhard,

I thought they were the same division. Thanks for the correction.

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Larry

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genstab
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#25

Post by genstab » 24 Aug 2017, 13:09

So, John, are these the new commanders' dates according to what you have?

Streich to 4-6-41
then Ravenstein?

and Kirchheim wasn't mFb at all?

All these contradictory sources are really confusing but you usually have the straight dope. Appreciate what you can tell us.

Best,
Bill in Cleveland

histan
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#26

Post by histan » 24 Aug 2017, 23:16

Hi Bill

I am not sure of the actual date that von Ravenstein took over, only that it was some time in the first week of June - maybe 4th maybe 8th or somtime in between.

It looks like that there are two myths about the Afrika Korps that have been perpetuated by at least one highly unreliable but profligate author:
First is that Ferdinand Schaal actually commanded DAK in early September 1941
Second is that Kirchheim replaced Streich as commander of 5 le Div with a date of 16.05.194 being quoted.

As Richard pointed out above, Kirchheim commanded Gruppe Kirchheim (called that in the DAK KTB) which contained significant elements of 5 le Div.

Regards

John

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genstab
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#27

Post by genstab » 25 Aug 2017, 01:12

Thanks, John. Appreciate it. And I know just which author you're referring to. After his original book about the divisions was found to have a lot of holes, a compadre of mine called him and told him about Tessin- he had never heard of it and said he'd have to do it all over again, better. His later work supposedly is. But as to the commanders, which Tessin doesn't provide, I have no idea where he got his data.

Almost the weekend- enjoy.

Best.
Bill in Cleveland

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askropp
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#28

Post by askropp » 04 Sep 2017, 19:02

It is a pity that the early KTB of the division is lost, but some things are murky even during periods for which a KTB exists. Does anybody know when GM Bismarck was wounded and replaced by Oberst Bruer for the first time (not when Bismarck died)? He returned on 20.08.1942, but I did not found any text passage that mentioned his departure. I'm also missing any original info on the last change of command from GM Hildebrandt to Oberst Hülsen, although I know that the official date was 25.04.1943.
There are times in history when staying neutral means taking sides.

MarkN
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#29

Post by MarkN » 09 Apr 2018, 20:38

askropp wrote:It is a pity that the early KTB of the division is lost, but some things are murky even during periods for which a KTB exists.
The KTB Ia for 5.lei-Div/21.Pz-Div 18 February - 15 September 1941 and the KTB Ib for 5.lei-Div 27 January - 18 June 1941 exist. It is yet another of those mysterious myths going around that they were lost.

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askropp
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Re: 5. Leichte Division

#30

Post by askropp » 09 Apr 2018, 21:12

I am taken aback! Could you tell us on which NARA roll it is to be found?
There are times in history when staying neutral means taking sides.

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