Moscow who got closer?

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sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 12 Apr 2016 16:44

Shane6969 wrote:My Grandfather was part of the II Battalion, 6 Pz Gren Rgt, 7 Panzer Division from the start of the Barbarossa Campaign until his death in September 1943 near Poltava, Ukraine. I believe the Panzer Grenadiers of the 7 P.D were formed into an ad-hoc formation known as "Kampfgruppe Manteuffel" when they took the bridge over the Moscow-Volga Canal. Apparently my Grandfather told my Dad that saw the outskirts of Moscow through some field glasses.

Hi Shane..

This is very interesting. I love to hear anecdotal experiences of WW II quoted from direct participants. May I ask how old was your father in 1942? Thats when presumably yr grandfather must have told him about Moscow?

Ciao
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 12 Apr 2016 17:50

Hi everyone...

The following gives a rather lucid account of Das Reich's occupation of the Kryokovo - Lenino area in the last days of November and early December '41.

".....'On 30 November, after hard fighting, the 3rd Battalion [of Deutschland
Regiment] managed to capture the station and the factory in the north of
Stalino. On the previous day the regiment's 2nd and 3rd Battalions,
supported by the assault guns, "BlUcher", "LUtzow" and "Derftlinger", had
captured Kryokovo after bitter fighting against a determined enemy. Losses
to the battalions had been heavy. During the fighting the CO of 3rd
Battalion, Hauptsturmfiihrer Kroger was shot and killed by a bullet in the
head fired at close range. While "Deutschland" was consolidating on its
objectives, heavy losses of the past weeks made it imperative for 3rd Battalion
to be broken up in order to raise the strength of the other two battalions.
The survivors of 3rd Battalion were thereupon incorporated into the 1st and
2nd Battalions.
'On 2 December, the advanced guard of "Deutschland" regiment was
directly facing Lenino. After forming up on either side of the RochdestvenLenino
road the battalions moved off into the attack. In the woods to the
west of the town, both battalions had their way obstructed by strong Russian

trench systems and were soon involv~ in heavy fighting. At the same time
heavy barrages of mortar fire came in and the bombs exploding in the tree
tops infiicted heavy casualties among· which were a great many officers
including the regimental commander, Schulz, and the COs of both
battalions. The regimental commander and the CO of 2nd Battalion both
refused to leave the field and led their units until nightfall. Fighting for
Lenino went on until late in the night. To begin with only certain areas could
be taken but at 2300 hrs the 2nd Battalion received orders to attack Lenino
from the west and to take it regardless of cost. The SPs went. in with No 6
Company but found the enemy had fled. He had pulled out during the night.
Lenino was taken and secured. By gaining that place we had reached an outer
suburb of Moscow - only 17 kms from the city centre. Lenino was a terminus
of the Moscow bus line. In clear. weather it would be possible to see the
towers of the Kremlin. My God, how close we were to this historic objective.
Then on 3rd December, Panzer Group 4, reported to Army Group Centre
that it no longer had the strength to maintain the offensive. The troops were
physically and mentally exhausted ... Fourth Army pulled back its divisions
to their jumping-off points behind the Neva....."

(Experiences of War, The Third Reich, James Lucas)
(http://www.solargeneral.org/wp-content/ ... -lucas.pdf)

It was a hair raising episode. It was touch and go. If there was one more fresh german division in reserve? Maybe one good regiment ? Just 17 Kms from the centre of Moscow !? :)



Cheers
Sandeep

Art
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by Art » 12 Apr 2016 18:21

Lenino is not 17 km from the center of Moscow. Actually the distance to Kremlin as birds fly is 38 km and about 22 km to the present border (Moscow circular road), you can easily measure it from the map. And as far I know it wasn't really the closest point of German advance to Moscow.

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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by GregSingh » 12 Apr 2016 23:46

13-years old thread resurrected!

Khimki were mentioned in almost every post-WWII book about this subject, but I've never seen any primary source confirming it.

Are Khimki now confirmed by Russian or German primary sources?

Last time I checked, German primary sources mentioned Krasnaya Polyana and Lobnya train station fully controlled in late November 1941.
There is a German 1941 sketch map showing reconnaissance patrols reaching Kyazma river, south of Krasnaya Polyana, half way to Khimki.

Are stories appearing on Russian web sites about "Battle of Khimki bridge" in October(!) 1941 fairy tales?
I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. It’s impossible to put down.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 13 Apr 2016 07:17

GregSingh wrote:13-years old thread resurrected!

Khimki were mentioned in almost every post-WWII book about this subject, but I've never seen any primary source confirming it.

Are Khimki now confirmed by Russian or German primary sources?

Last time I checked, German primary sources mentioned Krasnaya Polyana and Lobnya train station fully controlled in late November 1941.
There is a German 1941 sketch map showing reconnaissance patrols reaching Kyazma river, south of Krasnaya Polyana, half way to Khimki.

Are stories appearing on Russian web sites about "Battle of Khimki bridge" in October(!) 1941 fairy tales?
Hi Greg..

Maybe cross referencing with a Russian source would help? After all if the Germans really reached Khimki at the doorsteps of Moscow, tthe Russians too would doubtless take this seriously and do something about it. And if they did something about it then that would be recorded somewhere. We have heard about the defences of the Soviet 16th Army at Khimki but Zhukov's planning for the upcoming counteroffensive seems to have added in the 20th Army in this sector.

The following are excerpts from the Zhukov papers:

№63

Директива штаба Западного фронта командующему 1-й ударной армией № 0021 от 2 декабря 1941 г. о переходе в наступление на клинском направлении

КОМАНДАРМУ 1-й УДАРНОЙ КУЗНЕЦОВУ

Копия: НАЧГЕНШТАБА

№ 0021/оп

Комфронтом приказал: с утра 2.12 всеми силами армии перейти с решительное наступление в общем направлении Деденево, Федоровка, южная окраина Клин.

Ближайшая задача - 2.12 освободить из окружения группу войск генерала Захарова в районе Федоровка, Каменка.

Дальнейшая задача - наступать в направлении Клин и во взаимодействии с 30-й армией справа и 20-й армией слева разбить клинско-солнечногорскую группу противника.

20-я армия наносит удар в направлении Химки, Солнечногорск.

Разгранлиния с ней - Рахманово, Черная, Каменка, Вертлинское, Мисарево (все исключительно для 1-й ударной армии).

Получение и исполнение донести.


Начальник штаба фронта
Соколовский
Казбинцев

2.12.41 г.

1.30

ЦАМО, ф. 208, оп. 2513, д. 213, л. 455. Подлинник.

№ 64

Директива штаба Западного фронта командующему 20-й армией № 0023 от 2 декабря 1941 г. о переходе в наступление на солнечногорском направлении

КОМАНДАРМУ 20 ВЛАСОВУ

Копия: КОМАНДАРМУ 16 РОКОССОВСКОМУ

НАЧГЕНШТАБА КА

Карта 100 000

№ 0023
2.12.41 г. 2.00

Комфронтом приказал:

1. Дополнительно включить с 18 часов 2.12 в состав 20-й армии войска, ведущие бой на фронте - 7 гв. сд, 282 сп, 145, 24, 31-ю танковые бригады. Командарму 16 передать указанные части командарму 20.

2. Продолжая 2.12 выполнять частную операцию, с 7 часов 3.12 перейти в решительное наступление всеми силами армии в общем направлении Химки, Солнечногорск.

Ближайшая задача 20-й армии - разгромить в течение 3-6* декабря противника и овладеть Солнечногорск обходом с юго-запада и севера.

3. 2.12 провести подготовку к наступлению - организовать управление войсками, занять исходное положение, провести разведку всех видов, материально обеспечить войска для боя всем необходимым.

4. Справа - 1-я ударная армия наступает в направлении Деденево, Клин. Разгранлиния с ней - Рахманово, Черная, Каменка, Вертлинское, Мисарово.

Слева - 16-я армия будет наступать в западном направлении. Разгранлиния с ней - Супонево, Лосиноостровская, Краснооктябрьский, Верескино, Чашниково, Поварово, Пятница, Коренька.

5. С директивой ознакомить только Военный совет и начальника штаба. Исполнителям давать задания, вытекающие из настоящей директивы.

6. Получение подтвердить.




(English Translation)

№63

Directive of Staff of the Western Front commander of the 1st Shock Army number 0021 of 2 December 1941 on the transition to the offensive on Klin direction

Army Commander 1st SHOCK Kuznetsov

Cc: chief of staff

Number 0021 / op

Front Commander ordered: 2.12 in the morning all the army forces go to a decisive offensive in the general direction Dedenevo, Fedorovka, southern outskirts of Klin.

The immediate task - to release 2.12 of the environment group the troops of General Zakharov in Fedorovka area, Kamenka.

A further task - to advance in the direction of the wedge, and in conjunction with the 30th Army on the right and the 20th army left to break Klin-Solnechnogorsk enemy group.

20th Army strikes in the direction of Khimki, Solnechnogorsk.


Razgranliniya it - Rakhmanov, Black, Kamenka, Vertlinskoe, Misarevo (all exclusively for the 1st Shock Army).

Preparation and execution to deliver.


Chief of Staff of the Front
Sokolovsky
Kazbintsev

12.02.41 Mr.

1.30

CAMD, p. 208, op. 2513, d. 213, l. 455. Original.

number 64

Directive of Staff of the Western Front commander of the 20th army number 0023 of 2 December 1941 on the transition to the offensive in the direction of Solnechnogorsk

20 commanders VLASOV

Cc: 16 commanders Rokossovsky

CA chief of staff

Map 100 000

Number 0023
12/02/41 2.00 g

Front Commander ordered :

1. Add the 2.12 to the 18 hours of the 20 th Army troops leading the fight at the front - 7 Guards. sd, sp 282, 145, 24, 31 Panzer Brigade. 16 commanders of the army commander to transfer these 20.

2. Continuing to perform individual operations 2.12, 3.12 to 7:00 to go in the decisive attack all military forces in the general direction of Khimki, Solnechnogorsk.

The immediate task of the 20th Army - to defeat within 3-6 On December the enemy and seize Solnechnogorsk detour from the south-west and north.

3. 2.12 to prepare for the offensive - to organize command and control, to take a starting position, to carry out the exploration of all kinds of material to provide troops to fight with everything necessary.

4. On the right - 1st Shock Army comes in the direction Dedenevo Wedge. Razgranliniya it - Rakhmanov, Black, Kamenka, Vertlinskoe, Misarovo.

On the left - the 16th Army will advance to the west. Razgranliniya it - Suponevo, Losinoostrovskaya, Krasnooktyabrsky, Vereskino, Chashnikovo, Povarovo, Friday, Koren'kov.

5. Directive to introduce only the Military Council and Chief of Staff. Singer giving tasks arising from this Directive.

6. Getting to confirm.


So there certainly was major action in the Khimki area. And Khimki is no doubt close to the borders of Moscow, a few KMs (8 KM ?), as the crow flies, as per this battle map in Russian. Though the driving distance today via motorable roads is upwards of 20 Km I am told.

Baranovskiy_05_Moscow_Nov25_Dec2_3_41.jpg

Now lets see if we can find anything from the German side about the exploits of the 62 Panzer Pionier battailon or a narrative combining both versions, German and Russian :


( Excerpts from : Главная » Книги » Kershaw Robert » War Without Garlands: Operation Barbarossa 1941-1942 » Страница 126)
at Khimki
"....The closest finger niggling at the Russian defences on the outskirts of the city was the 2nd (Vienna) Panzer Division. Its antitank battalion was becoming increasingly dismayed at the ineffectiveness of its 37mm guns against the increasing numbers of Soviet T-34s its battle groups were encountering as they advanced south-eastwards along the Solnechnogorsk–Moscow road. A lucky shot striking the machine gun aperture of a T-34 from only 10m during an attack at Turicina had set one tank ablaze. It suicidally carried on to crush its 37mm assailant. At Strelino four English ‘Matilda’ tanks were despatched by Panzer Regiment 3. They had all been recently manufactured and had ‘September 1941’ stamped on their engine plates – an indication of Allied resolve and urgency to stem the Axis advance. On 28 November American tank types were knocked out. As the Kampfgruppe ‘Decker’ rolled into Oserezkoje on 1 December soldiers remarked on the appearance of Moscow Omnibus line stops. A combat group of Panzers, infantry, artillery and engineers commanded by Oberst Rodt of the 304th Regiment occupied the three villages of Krassnaya Polyana, Putschki and Katjuschki on 30 November. Another battalion (the IInd) from the same regiment under Major Reichmann secured Gorki, nearby. A small salient had been driven into the area of Sixteenth Soviet Army, 17km from the outskirts of Moscow and only 27km from the Kremlin.(8)

They had been preceded, unknown to themselves, the previous day by motorcycle patrols from Panzer Pionier Battalion 62. Temperatures had now risen slightly to 0°C, which produced light wet snow and patchy fog. Utilising these conditions, General Hoepner commanding Panzergruppe 4 detached these motorcyclists from 2nd Panzer Division and ordered them forward to raid the railway station at Lobnya and conduct a fighting reconnaissance south of it. In one of those bizarre episodes of war, as the Russians fell back from Solnechnogorsk and the 2nd Panzer Division pushed its battle groups south-eastwards in search of an unopposed route into Moscow, the motorcycle raid found it. Hunched behind their BMWs and machine-gun-mounted sidecars, the force thrust forward, encountering no opposition until it reached Khimki, a small river port in the north-west suburbs of Moscow. They were within 8km of the city and 20km of the Kremlin, only a short drive away, a distance that could be covered in minutes. Panic ensued among the startled local inhabitants. ‘The Germans are in Khimki!’ was the cry. The motorcycle detachment, having had no substantial contact with Soviet troops, feeling vulnerable at the depth of their incursion and seeing the obvious agitation they had caused, turned back.
They needed to report this unopposed thoroughfare. Support would not be at hand if they drove into resistance and, feeling over-extended, they retraced their route. Incredibly the unit drove back through the German lines without a shot being fired.(9)

Not surprisingly a flurry of activity resulted on the Russian side. Soviet General Konstantin Rokossovsky, whose Sixteenth Army was located just west of Moscow, received an unwelcome reminder of Stalin’s resolve. He said:

‘Comrade Stalin called me during the night. The situation was pretty difficult and our units had already fallen back in a number of areas. We knew that the Commander-in-Chief would give us such a dressing down we would feel sick. So I picked up the receiver with the special line with some trepidation. He asked me one question “Are you aware, comrade Rokossovsky, that the enemy has occupied Krassnaya Polyana, and do you realise that if Krassnaya Polyana is occupied it means that the Germans can bombard any part of the city of Moscow?”’(10)"


Battle map of the salients closest to Moscow
map.2pz.jpg

So Khimki it was ? Unless there emerge other claims of German troops closer to Moscow?


Ciao
Sandeep
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sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 13 Apr 2016 07:25

Art wrote:Lenino is not 17 km from the center of Moscow. Actually the distance to Kremlin as birds fly is 38 km and about 22 km to the present border (Moscow circular road), you can easily measure it from the map. And as far I know it wasn't really the closest point of German advance to Moscow.

Hi Art...

You are right. The war memorial at Snegiri ( Lenino) is just under 40 Kms from Moscow.

snegiri.jpg
snegiri memorial.jpg

The above from the Lenino - Snegiri war memorial area.


Cheers
Sandeep
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Shane6969
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by Shane6969 » 13 Apr 2016 12:06

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
Shane6969 wrote:My Grandfather was part of the II Battalion, 6 Pz Gren Rgt, 7 Panzer Division from the start of the Barbarossa Campaign until his death in September 1943 near Poltava, Ukraine. I believe the Panzer Grenadiers of the 7 P.D were formed into an ad-hoc formation known as "Kampfgruppe Manteuffel" when they took the bridge over the Moscow-Volga Canal. Apparently my Grandfather told my Dad that saw the outskirts of Moscow through some field glasses.

Hi Shane..

This is very interesting. I love to hear anecdotal experiences of WW II quoted from direct participants. May I ask how old was your father in 1942? Thats when presumably yr grandfather must have told him about Moscow?

Ciao
Sandeep
Hi Sandeep,

My Dad was 10 years old in 1942. My Dad remembers a fair bit of what my Grandfather told him about his wartime experiences, also my Dad remembers a lot about the war from his own perspective/experiences.

Cheers mate

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 13 Apr 2016 12:41

Shane6969 wrote:
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
Shane6969 wrote:My Grandfather was part of the II Battalion, 6 Pz Gren Rgt, 7 Panzer Division from the start of the Barbarossa Campaign until his death in September 1943 near Poltava, Ukraine. I believe the Panzer Grenadiers of the 7 P.D were formed into an ad-hoc formation known as "Kampfgruppe Manteuffel" when they took the bridge over the Moscow-Volga Canal. Apparently my Grandfather told my Dad that saw the outskirts of Moscow through some field glasses.

Hi Shane..

This is very interesting. I love to hear anecdotal experiences of WW II quoted from direct participants. May I ask how old was your father in 1942? Thats when presumably yr grandfather must have told him about Moscow?

Ciao
Sandeep
Hi Sandeep,

My Dad was 10 years old in 1942. My Dad remembers a fair bit of what my Grandfather told him about his wartime experiences, also my Dad remembers a lot about the war from his own perspective/experiences.

Cheers mate
Hi Shane...

It was tough on tht generation ..I mean your dads generation. Adoring his war hero father and living in daily fear for his life at the front.
Your grandfather must have been pretty close to Moscow. Need to check out the location of his unit.

What are your dad's personal memories of the war? Was he in the HJ?

Cheers
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 13 Apr 2016 14:51

Hi Shane...


Given below is the Order of battle for the 7th Pz Div in the USSR, 1941.

7pz.gif
If you follow the link provided then you can reach the original page where an option is given to open the explanations page for the organisational symbols. You can locate the 2 Btln of the 6 Pz Gr, your grandfather's unit. I am guessing that he would have been in his mid to late 30s by that time since your father was 10 then. So he must hv been an NCO or JCO, if not an officer (mid ranking) at that time.

It would be interesting to know more about him and his role in those tumultous days.

Cheers
Sandeep
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Art
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by Art » 14 Apr 2016 12:08

GregSingh wrote: Are Khimki now confirmed by Russian or German primary sources?
I believe Lobnya and Khlebnikovo were the closest confirmed points. I haven't seen any indications of Germna presnece in Khimki in Soviet primary sources.

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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by GregSingh » 14 Apr 2016 12:32

Thanks Art.
I noticed some documents of 20 Army are now available using this search http://vnr.github.io/pamyat-naroda-search/, unfortunately daily maps have not been scanned yet.
Report from 5th of December mentions heavy fighting with Germans at Krasnaya Polyana.
During 1-4 of Dec. no fighting were reported in the area, looks like 20 Army was concentrating just south of Kyazma river.
I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. It’s impossible to put down.

Art
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by Art » 14 Apr 2016 14:54

Here is a situation map as of 4 December 1941 (page 20):
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=132339208

GregSingh
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by GregSingh » 15 Apr 2016 07:57

Nice map!
There is a sketch map next to it showing German's attacks in the area of Lobnya (East) and Khlebnikovo (South). Both by 2.Pz.Div.
I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. It’s impossible to put down.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Moscow who got closer?

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 15 Apr 2016 10:58

It is to be noted that the claim for Khimki is not of a battle. Rather it was briefly occupied by a motorcycle contingent who rapidly withdrew since they were out on a limb.
How exactly would that reflect on a situation map?

Ciao
Sandeep

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