Organisation Aufklärungs-Abteilung 1 LSSAH Feb 1943

[Lannes1uk]

Dear all

I’ve been studying the organisation of 1 AA LAH (hope that’s correct) following its conversion to an Armoured Recce Bn in Nov 1942. As a soldier and policeman for nearly 40 years, still a serving officer, and a keen follower of Military History, I have always been curious as to the difference between the written doctrine and policy of an organisation and the practical reality. The fact that, certainly my perception, the German Armed Forces were exceptionally cognisant of the practical reality of frontline operations, and so very adaptive in terms of its doctrine and organisation, particularly peaks my interest. This is especially so in units that seem to vary somewhat from the specified KStn.
Having looked at 1 AA.LAH in Feb 1943 I believe it should consist of:

HQ AA ((mot) KStn 1109 including;
- Armoured Car Plt (Sd.Kfz 233) KStn 1138 (not confirmed 1 AA.LAH received this)
1 & 2 Kp VW KStn 1113 (mot)
3 Kp SPW KStn 1113 (gep)
4 Kp Armoured Car KStn 1162
5 Hy Kp HQ KsTN 1121a (gep) with;
- Light Infantry Gun Plt KStN 1123a (gep)
- Gun Plt Sd.Kfz 251/9 KStn 1125a (gep)
- Pioneer Plt KStn 1124a
- AT Gun Section KStn 1127a (gep)
- Heavy AT Gun Plt KStn 1145a (gep)
Lehmann in Leibstandarte Vol II gives a Hy Mortar Plt, Hy Infantry Gun Plt & a PAK Plt.

However a number of sources quote differences including a major thread on this forum. Robert Edwards in Tip of the Spear states that 1 AA.LAH did not have a 5 Hy Kp but had a 5 Mot AT Gun Kp KStN 1140/1 and a Mot Infantry Gun Kp (based on KStn 174/1) with attached SP Infantry Gun Plt, & Pioneer Plt KStn 1124a).
Edwards also states that although records are not available for the initial allocation of the Armoured Scout Kp KTsN 1162c (Sd.Kfz 250/9), 1 AA.LAH was a probable recipient in early 1943 (given the numbers produced at that time unlikely to be 16, sufficient for an entire Kp), which is supported by a return from LAH of 8 available on 10 March 1943.
Sepp Meyer in Grenadiers relates liberating 6 Hy Infantry Guns and 12 PAK 40 from a delayed train, which were then incorporated by forming units from existing personnel (He indicates they were more effective than the PAK 38 they already had). I have also seen quotes on the presence of Marder III (Fits with KStn 1140/1?) supported by photos from winter campaign.

So my questions are;
1. What was the makeup of the 5 Kp? Was it originally intended as a Mot AT Gun Plt, or did it evolve into one, with some of the original elements moved into the adhoc Mot Infantry Gun Kp?
2. How were the Sd.Kfz 250/9 deployed within the orbat of 1 AA.LAH during this time?
3. Did 1 AA.LAH receive the Sd.Kfz 233 Plt for the Kharkov Campaign?
4. What does KStN’s 1140/1 and 174/1 consist of? (Have been unable to obtain these)
5. Was the Mot Infantry Gun Kp formalised as a specific Kp ie 6 Kp?

Many thanks in advance for any time taken to answer these questions. I have searched these forums and others, which have answered other questions I had but not these.

Best Regards
Gary Martin

[Gary Kennedy]

Well re the couple of KStN queries at least;

1140 of 01 June 1942 was built around three Pls, each of three 7.5-cm or 7.62-cm Pak with five SdKfz10 halftracks for towing guns and trailer. The total authorised strength was 4 officers, 26 NCOs and 111 men with 26 motor vehicles and 11 motorcycles. 1141 (is this the one you're referring to?) isn't one I have but is over on wwiidaybyday.com

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11411nov41.htm

174 isn't available, it was issued for GD in October 1939 and looks to have been just six towed 7.5-cm light inf guns. I'm not sure what you mean by 174/1, are you thinking of 171? If so that was the horse-drawn Inf Gun Coy for an Inf Regt, the motorised equivalent would be 176 (also six 7.5-cm and two 15-cm inf guns) -

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1761nov41.htm

I won't pretend to know for sure but I'd be surprised if the Hvy Coy was fully halftracked, even only on paper, as early as Feb 1943. You only start to see that in the Pz Divs proper much later on in 1943.

Gary

[EugE]

If you want to find out more info about the real condition of unit you need any documents from 81 Army Corps or other doc. of 15 A at the end of 1942.
It will help you:
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... ld&start=0
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... ld&start=0

So my questions are;
1. What was the makeup of the 5 Kp? Was it originally intended as a Mot AT Gun Plt, or did it evolve into one, with some of the original elements moved into the adhoc Mot Infantry Gun Kp?
2. How were the Sd.Kfz 250/9 deployed within the orbat of 1 AA.LAH during this time?
3. Did 1 AA.LAH receive the Sd.Kfz 233 Plt for the Kharkov Campaign?
4. What does KStN’s 1140/1 and 174/1 consist of? (Have been unable to obtain these)
5. Was the Mot Infantry Gun Kp formalised as a specific Kp ie 6 Kp?
Gary Martin

No one of the 250/9 and the Sd.Kfz 233 were in LAH posession before and during Kharkov.
A 6 coy. appeared after the Kharkov battle as a result of Pak. and s.Jnf. Guns capturing during a Kharkov defense.
--6. Infanteriegeschütz-Kompanie (mot) – (4 x 7.5cm leIG) – KStN 174 (Grossdeutschland)
--(Ad Hoc Unit) – Infanteriegeschütz Zug (sfl "Grille") – (6 x SdKfz 138/1 15cm sIG) - it organiszed before "Citadelle".


I post Gliederung of LSSAH from April 1th.(T 312 R50)

[Lannes1uk]

Well re the couple of KStN queries at least;

1140 of 01 June 1942 was built around three Pls, each of three 7.5-cm or 7.62-cm Pak with five SdKfz10 halftracks for towing guns and trailer. The total authorised strength was 4 officers, 26 NCOs and 111 men with 26 motor vehicles and 11 motorcycles. 1141 (is this the one you're referring to?) isn't one I have but is over on wwiidaybyday.com

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn11411nov41.htm

174 isn't available, it was issued for GD in October 1939 and looks to have been just six towed 7.5-cm light inf guns. I'm not sure what you mean by 174/1, are you thinking of 171? If so that was the horse-drawn Inf Gun Coy for an Inf Regt, the motorised equivalent would be 176 (also six 7.5-cm and two 15-cm inf guns) -

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1761nov41.htm

I won't pretend to know for sure but I'd be surprised if the Hvy Coy was fully halftracked, even only on paper, as early as Feb 1943. You only start to see that in the Pz Divs proper much later on in 1943.

Gary

Many thanks for that. 1140/1 & 174/1 was how it was written in Tip of the Spear, but definitely refers to 1140 & 174 both of which appear to make sense. In a previous topic Harro states - 5. (schw.-) Kompanie was disbanded on April 4, 1943, and a full 5. (Pz.Jgr.-) Kompanie and a full 6. (IG.-) Kompanie were formed.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... r#p1737545

Regards
Gary

[Lannes1uk]

No one of the 250/9 and the Sd.Kfz 233 were in LAH posession before and during Kharkov.
A 6 coy. appeared after the Kharkov battle as a result of Pak. and s.Jnf. Guns capturing during a Kharkov defense.
--6. Infanteriegeschütz-Kompanie (mot) – (4 x 7.5cm leIG) – KStN 174 (Grossdeutschland)
--(Ad Hoc Unit) – Infanteriegeschütz Zug (sfl "Grille") – (6 x SdKfz 138/1 15cm sIG) - it organiszed before "Citadelle".


I post Gliederung of LSSAH from April 1th.(T 312 R50)

In Tip of the Spear (page 467) it states that allocation of light half-tracks were kept from May 1943 so initial allocations are not recorded. There were 27 Sd.Kfz 250/9 available in January 43 and 32 on the 1st April. It goes on to say that the probable destinations for these vehicles is LSSAH, and 1st Panzer Div (and/or 2 Panzer Div).
On page 471 under LSSAH it states that a vehicle status report from 10 March 43 shows presence of 8 Sd.Kfz 250 “mit 2 cm Kwk”. KStn 1162c was formally authorised for LSSAH in July 43 but never completed. It adds that all remaining 250/9 were lost by early 44.

Regards
Gary

[Alanmccoubrey]

Gary, this thread on the SdKfz 250/9 says that LAH never received any SdKfz 250/9.

https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28700

Just because they reported having "SdKfz 250 mit 2cm" does not mean that they had any SdKfz 250/9, there were many other ways to put a 2cm gun in a 250. A search of even just this forum will show you many photographs of them.

[Lannes1uk]

Gary, this thread on the SdKfz 250/9 says that LAH never received any SdKfz 250/9.

https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28700

Just because they reported having "SdKfz 250 mit 2cm" does not mean that they had any SdKfz 250/9, there were many other ways to put a 2cm gun in a 250. A search of even just this forum will show you many photographs of them.

Alan

Agree re the battlefield conversions and have previously seen photos of such from late North Africa. However I going to put my old Senior Investigating Officer head on to review what I have seen so far including various other threads etc.

Facts beyond reasonable doubt;
1. The Sd.Kfz 250/9 was authorised for full production in spring 1943
2. Martin Block(the key contributor to the forum you linked above and wrote the compiliation on the 250/9 in Tip of the Spear) state that records for distribution of half-track vehicles were not kept until May 1943. (Interestingly I saw in another thread that this was the same for the Sd,Kfz 233)
3. Martin gives 27 Sd.Kfz available in Jan 1943 and 32 on 1 April 1943 and 42 at the beginning of May 43 (whether this is the number produced for that month or the running total during that period Is not clear)
4. From the point that records were kept no 250/9 were delivered to 1.AA LSSAH and no other records exist that show distribution to LSSAH
5. A vehicle report form LSSAH on 10 March 43 show 8x 250 with 2cm Kwk.These had all been lost by early 1944 ( LSSAH was withdrawn for refit in March/April 44 with all remaining heavy weapons and equipment handed over to remaining units)
6. There is no information to suggest that a formed unit of 250/9 was present at any point in LSSAH

Probable points;
1. The production lines for 250/9 would be developed and producing vehicles prior to the formal sign off in Spring 43. (Numbers above)
2. LSSAH during its refit is receiving the latest equipment during Nov 42 - Feb 43. The Army is ‘concerned at the rise of the Waffen SS over the preceding 2 years’, so re-equipping as Panzer Grenadier Divs ( in reality full Panzer division’s) must have required a significant amount of the SS hierarchy’s influence, so politically they needed to succeed when deployed.
3. The already produced vehicles were distributed. (Martin states “probably to LSSAH and 1st Panzer (and/or 2nd Panzer). These units were all formally authorised for a 1162c Kp within 4 or 5 months.

Possibilities;
1. Given the priority being given at this point to LSSAH it seems reasonable that they would receive some of the initially available 250/9’s, especially as they were going to be authorised for the relevant KStn.
2. That the acquisition of several resources at variance with the KStn, leading to a revision of 1.AA LSSAH to a 6 Kp orbat in April 43(possibly formalising ongoing evolution through the Kharkov campaign), made the addition of another Scout Kp impractical. Therefore although no further distribution took place it is not unreasonable to suggest that they received a few early vehicles.

I hope my ramblings make some sense
Regards

gary

[Harro]

I don't know where to start but most if not all questions are answered in my book. For example:

Already on the 4th of April [1943] the former 5. (schwere) Kompanie had been disbanded. Its anti-tank platoon was used as the core for the 5. (Pz.Jgr.) Kompanie led by SS-Untersturmführer Frieder Junghanns (SS-No. 360 359) and the infantry gun platoon was used to form the 6. (IG) Kompanie of SS-Untersturmführer Volkmar Tamm (SS-No. 18 061). Apart from SS-Oberscharführer Hans Borowski the platoon leaders of the Panzerjägerkompanie have not been identified. The company commanders of the 6. (IG) Kompanie are known:

1st platoon (Grille) : SS-Oberscharführer Tschigotta
2nd platoon (Grille) : SS-Oberscharführer Tesch (SS-No. 364 767)
3rd platoon (Grille) : SS-Unterscharführer Euler (SS-No. 364 829)
4th platoon (towed IG) : SS-Oberscharführer Gottschalk

The personnel for the expansion from platoon to company came mainly from SS-Infanterie-Geschütz-Ausbildungs-und-Ersatz-Bataillon ‘Breslau-Lisse’.

The 1. (VW) Kompanie was to become a Panzerspähkompanie by replacing its surviving Schwimmwagens with Sd.Kfz. 250/9 armoured halftracks equipped with 2cm automatic cannons. The available platoon leaders were SS-Standartenoberjunker Korreng, SS-Hauptscharführer Bindl and SS-Oberscharführer Fischer but the outfit was without a company commander until SS-Obersturmführer Coblenz returned to his post in June. SS-Rottenführer Herrmann became his driver and had to adapt from handling a Schwimmwagen to driving an armoured halftrack:

“In Oosthoven SS-Hauptscharführer Bindl’s anti-aircraft platoon was transferred from the Stabskompanie to us. The men were than instructed on the 2cm cannons and we, the drivers, learned to drive 1.5 tonne halftracks. And then the long wait started for the halftracks with 2cm cannon which never came.”

SS-Hauptscharführer Lindenhahn, who had been wounded in November 1943, also returned to the 1. Kompanie and our chronicler Wolfgang Venohr became his dispatch runner. Without the promised Sd.Kfz. 250/9 halftracks a so-called ‘Sonderzug Lindenhahn’ was formed with all available Schwimmwagens. A second ‘Sonderzug’, led by SS-Standartenoberjunker Lenz (SS-No. 425 807), was equipped with motorcycles.

In Turnhout an armoured car company was to be formed and equipped with Sd.Kfz. 250/9 and Sd.Kfz. 250/5. The Sd.Kfz 250/9 never arrived but in July nine Sd.Kfz. 250/5 were delivered. Three of them were converted as anti-aircraft vehicles by mounting 2cm guns. Mid November these nine Sd.Kfz. 250/5 were transferred to the 2. (le.SPW) Kompanie: the three halftracks with 2cm guns were added to the heavy platoon and the other six were used to form an armoured infantry platoon which was transferred to the Vorauskompanie on the 15th of December

The rest of the Aufklärungsabteilung left Turnhout on the 17th of June with the remaining units of the Leibstandarte following on during the next three days. Knittel had to leave the residue of the 1. Kompanie behind as there was still no sign of the Sd.Kfz. 250/9 halftracks and company commander Manfred Coblenz was hospitalised.

From my upcoming second book:

Apart from the men from ‘Sonderzug Lindenhahn’, the men under SS-Obersturmführer Coblenz’s command had remained in Beerse. There they had waited for the promised Sd.Kfz. 250/9 ‘Caesar’ but after the battle for the Verrières Ridge south of Caen, Knittel could use them as replacements for his other companies. However, while their transport train was still moving west toward the invasion front, Coblenz was informed that the long-awaited ‘Caesars’ were to be collected in Naumburg an der Saale. Walter Herrmann was one of approximately twenty drivers who were selected for an ‘Abholkommando’ (pick up team) that was send to Naunburg:

“I don’t remember who lead this Abholkommando but I think die [SS-]Unterscharführers Krause and Viergutz were present. [SS-]Unterscharführer Anton Prell was definitely there. In Naunburg we loitered for a couple of weeks before we were send back to the Abteilung without the vehicles.”

The rest of the 1. Kompanie and the squad from the Kanonenzug continued their way to France but arrived too late to participate in Operation ‘Lüttich’ and remained with the Stützpunkt of the Abteilung in Rugles.

[Harro]

HQ AA ((mot) KStn 1109 including;
- Armoured Car Plt (Sd.Kfz 233) KStn 1138 (not confirmed 1 AA.LAH received this)
1 & 2 Kp VW KStn 1113 (mot)
3 Kp SPW KStn 1113 (gep)
4 Kp Armoured Car KStn 1162
5 Hy Kp HQ KsTN 1121a (gep) with;
- Light Infantry Gun Plt KStN 1123a (gep)
- Gun Plt Sd.Kfz 251/9 KStn 1125a (gep)
- Pioneer Plt KStn 1124a
- AT Gun Section KStn 1127a (gep)
- Heavy AT Gun Plt KStn 1145a (gep)
Lehmann in Leibstandarte Vol II gives a Hy Mortar Plt, Hy Infantry Gun Plt & a PAK Plt.

Aufkl.Abt. LAH never had any 233's or 250/9's - early production or other. As for the rest of their OoB: the main problem is that before April 1943 the whole organisation was based on the original Kst.N scedules but differed from them in many cases and after April 1943 it was a complete mess. In my opinion the confusion about an "armoured car platoon" in the HQ company is caused by the existance of a fully armoured signals platoon with 8- and 4-wheeled Panzerspähwagen. On paper this unit belonged to the HQ company but practically they were attached to the PSW-company for supplies and maintenance and in action the vehicles were assigned to the various companies for communication with the battalion and division HQ and did not operate as a closed platoon.

[Harro]

5. A vehicle report form LSSAH on 10 March 43 show 8x 250 with 2cm Kwk.These had all been lost by early 1944 ( LSSAH was withdrawn for refit in March/April 44 with all remaining heavy weapons and equipment handed over to remaining units)

Do you have a scan of that vehicle report? BTW, at least some equipment remained with the Abteilung. Leidreiter compained in Turnhout: “What kind of vehicles would we receive? Nobody knew. Therefore vehicles were scraped together from all over the division. All these vehicles were complete junk, remnants of the preceding winter battles. In Leidreiter's case it was Sd.Kfz. 251's but see also the above mentioned "Sonderzug Lindenhahn" which consisted of the remaining Schwimmwagens.

[EugE]

A vehicle report form LSSAH on 10 March 43 show 8x 250 with 2cm Kwk.
Gary Martin

I suppose that you have never seen this report. Because there recordet not 250/9 2 cm. but 251 (correction 1 to 0) /7 (digit 7 crossed out). The following Rolls show this T313R364&387. A record 2 cm. Sd.Kfz. 250 has appeared later in Roll T313R390 -July 1943.

During preparation for Citadelle the LAH personnel have improvised with weapons and armed half tracked vehicles with Pak-38, perhaps that several SdKfz 250 were armed with a 2 cm. Guns - I mean that this is self-made constructed.

Do you have a scan of that vehicle report?

[Harro]

To get this straight: the report that shows 9x 2cm Sd.Kfz. 250 is from which date? Can you show the full document because this way it is far from clear what it shows.

[EugE]

Please

[Harro]

A very interesting document. When the 3. (le.SPW) Kompanie was formed in March 1942 it fielded 37 le. SPW. Knittel’s ‘Kompanietrupp’ (Company HQ Squad) fielded two Sd.Kfz. 250/3 command vehicles, four motorcycles for the dispatch riders section and a motorcycle combination for the Kfz. Staffelführer.

The composition of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd platoon:
Zugtrupp : 1x Sd.Kfz. 250/1, 1x Sd.Kfz. 250/10
1. Gruppe : 2x Sd.Kfz. 250/1
2. Gruppe : 2x Sd.Kfz. 250/1
3. Gruppe : 2x Sd.Kfz. 250/1

The seven Sd.Kfz. 250/1 and one Sd.Kfz. 250/10 meant that each of these three platoons were equipped with fourteen MG34 machine guns and one 37mm anti-tank gun. The 4th platoon was a heavy weapons platoon:

Zugtrupp: : 1x Sd.Kfz. 250/1, 1x motorcycle
1. (s. MG) Gruppe : 3x Sd.Kfz 250/1
2. (s. MG) Gruppe : 3x Sd.Kfz 250/1
3. (s. Werfer) Gruppe: 4x Sd.Kfz. 250/7

In each ‘schwere MG Gruppe’ (heavy MG squad) two Sd.Kfz. 250/1 each carried an MG34 machine gun on a heavy tripod mount and one Sd.Kfz. 250/1 carried the ammunition. In the ‘schwere Werfer Gruppe’ (heavy mortar squad) two Sd.Kfz. 250/7 each carried an 81mm mortar and two Sd.Kfz. 250/7 carried the ammunition.

According to veterans the Kompanie (now under Wawrzinek) had the same organization at Kursk with the only big change being the upgrade to MG42's to replace the MG34's. From your document it seems they were short one 250/7 and between three and five 250/1. I agree that the nine 250's with 2cm guns were most likely field modifications. The million dollar question is obviously whether the Aufkl.Abt. used them or another unit within the LSSAH. Possibly some of their 250/1s were modified with 2cm guns which could account for being short some of them. But for me that is impossible to confirm at the moment due to lack of evidence. Considered that it refers to the modified 250's with s.Pz.B 41 which are not listed separately in this document but then neither are the 221's modified with that weapon which was 2.8 instead of 2cm. Mysterious.

BTW, there is photographic evidence that at least one of the 250/5's belonged to the 6. (I.G) Kompanie of the Aufkl.Abt.

[EugE]

For Harro - AA-LAH had not one of Marder during winter 1942-43, the anti-tank weapon symbol shown on the scheme of 37 mm Pak-36 mounted on SPW.
The PzK has received in submission PzGrDiv LAH and according to the plan of expansion Waffen-SS AA is shown (on 10.11.42) as: