Gebirgsjägerregiment 138 at Velikije Luki?

[GregSingh]

Well, check out that link provided by Ignacio earlier in this topic!

[Bob Forczyk]

Nice list. But I used the actual corps and division records from 1942 at NARA. I've seen the website you got this list from, it has some interesting items. This list also looks "idealized" in that some of the units listed in it were already burn-out from the first phase of fighting. In 20. mot., I do not have III./IR 76 involved. Where is III./GR 251 - it was in the battle. Some of the security battalions, like 663, are also missing from this list. What about StuG. Batterie 459? A number of Heeresartillerie battalions are also missing. The problem with post-war OOBs is you rarely get two to agree 100%, which is why I go to the originals.

I do not recall I/GJR 138 seeing any action at VL. I am positive it was not in Gruppe Klatt when the campaign began on 25 November. By the time that Gruppe Wohler was created, there was plenty of unit shuffling going on. I do know that GJR 138 was essentially just a reinforced battalion on 19 December and had taken heavy combat and frostbite losses.

[Mark V.]

Hello,

Divisional history by Paul Klatt has all three GJR138 battalions in action at Velikije Luki from day one.

Marko

[Bob Forczyk]

I've seen it. But it didn't match with the actual maps from November 1942. Or the daily casualty lists. The daily list for Gruppe Glatt were very specific. Klatt was definitely the man on the spot. There may have been detachments from the 1st Battalion with Gruppe Klatt, perhaps rolled into the other two battalions. Frankly, I've lost track of the importance of determining the location of one German battalion out of over 1,000 at this exact moment on the Eastern Front.

[Hoyt Burrass]

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate all the responses....I'm just interested in this one Bn because I'm designing a wargame on the Battle....at the Battalion scale...I lean towards Bob's response...It is not listed anywhere in the Kriegstagbuch for 3 Gebirgs...to my mind it is possible that it (I/183) was divided between Klatt and the Novo-sokolniki garrison....That garrison gave a good showing of itself in the battle....better than I would expect from Bautruppen, a Security Bn, and various adhoc alarm units...Kurowski says there were 2 Companies of 3rd Mountain in Novo-sokolniki in addition to alarm units built from 144 and 138 Gebirgs from Convalescents and rear area troops.

[Mark V.]

Both divisional histories by Klatt and Rueff cover the battles around VL in great detail. And not just for GJR138, but also for other units involved. So, this isn't just a map.
I./138 was 786 men strong at the start. After 20 days of fighting with KG Klatt it was down to only 60 men. Among the casualties was Btl. commander Hptm.Mueller-Sohler.
Given that the book is based on the Division's KTB and other documents I fail to see how battalion's action wouldn't be mentioned in them. Or that's because the regiment was dettached from the division.

[Bob Forczyk]

Actual KTB records trump post-war histories, which may or not not have had access to all the records.

First, I./138 GJR did not have 786 men at the start. T314, Roll 1509, LIX AK, Frame 538: I./GJR 138 had 400 troops, II./GJR138 had 250, III./GJR 138 had 400 troops (I believe this was Kampfstarke, but it did not specify). The entire GJR 138, excluding headquarters, signal troops, had a fighting strength of 1,050 at the start of the campaign. I'm looking for the daily reports on Gruppe Klatt, buried somewhere in my files, but I remember that even with attachments, it did not exceed 1,700 men.

Second, I went through the 3 Geb KTB on T315, Roll 180 and Roll 183. The records for the start of the VL campaign were very skimpy, probably because most of the division headquarters had already moved south (Gruppe Kreisling). I did find some mention that I./GJR 138 was involved in anti-partisan operations southwest/west of NovoSok. when the Soviet offensive began, which may explain why it did not join Gruppe Klatt when it was sent to help Gruppe Meyer. BTW, German records in Gruppe Chevallerie usually referred to formations as "Gruppe" not "Kampfgruppe" at this time. The fact that the Division history uses "Kampfgruppe Klatt" when the actual KTB records of the time indicate a certain level of inaccuracy. On top of this, the map depicts Gruppe Klatt near Chernosem station at the start, which is false. It was at Senkina-Gora and had to march 8 kms to the east.

The decision to send Gruppe Klatt east was an off-the cuff decision made by 11. Armee CoS (Schulz), who agreed to send GJR138 to deal with the Soviet offensive. As a result, there is not a lot of written documentation on this order. The LIX AK records, which have far more detail than 3 GEB KTB, only mention II and III GJR engaged. I suspect, that 1st battalion was rolled into the other two battalions to create two relatively strong battalions, although the casualty lists reflected three battalions. Somewhere I have detailed daily records for Gruppe Klatt in my 83 ID KTB.

There is one casual reference to I/GJR 138 in early December, which suggests that Scherer took troops from this battalion to provide stiffening for his alarm units around Sokol., but no specifics. The alarm units were made up of various small detachments, incl. 3 GEB personnel.

Gefechtsstarken report from 26 December indicates that I./GJR 138 has 231 men, II. has 231 and III. has 220.

Klatt was held prisoner in the Soviet Union until October 1955. I'm sure ten years of beatings and starvation didn't help his memory. The first edition of the Die 3. Gebirgs-Division was released in January 1958. Given pre-publication times, that would imply that Klatt wrote the book in less than two years. I don't know what kind of access he might have had to the Federal archives in 1956-57, but I don't running off to the archives and spending days going through records was probably not high on his list of priorities at the time.

[Hoyt Burrass]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your exhaustive reply...very much appreciated...I am in agreement....My German is just crap and scrolling through the microfilm images is tedious at best...thanks again!

[hucks216]

In the Russian archives they have a German aerial photo of Velikije Luki dated for 11th November 1942 showing the German defensive areas although the units are not shown.
https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... rid/zoom/1

[Dunnigan]

There is one casual reference to I/GJR 138 in early December, which suggests that Scherer took troops from this battalion to provide stiffening for his alarm units around Sokol., but no specifics. The alarm units were made up of various small detachments, incl. 3 GEB personnel.

Just to follow up on this, I may have found that "casual reference" to the I./GJR 138. In looking up info on the Jäger-Bataillon 3 on Lexikon-der-Wehrmacht, it notes:

"Ende November 1942 war das Bataillon an der Strecke Welikije Luki - Nowosokolniki im Einsatz. Anfang Dezember 1942 wurde das Bataillon zusammen mit dem Jäger-Bataillon 5 und dem I. Bataillon vom Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 138 zum Entsatz von Welikije Luki angesetzt."

Now, the note of I. Bataillon may be correct or a typo.

Regarding T314, Roll 1509. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find this microfilm in scanned form in the normal sources so I would be very interested in seeing the LIX AK rolls.

[Haibtlik]

interesting to read. This is where my grandfather got injured 22 december-42 and died a few days later. He was in 14 komp.GJR138