1. Panzer-Division panzer strength in Nov 1943

[Kelvin]

In accordance with Kamen Nevenkin book Fire Brigades, 1. Pz.division had 95 x Pz IV, 76 x Panther, 7 x Flammpanzer III, 8 x V1801 and 2 x V1601, but no much more detail on that. I would like to ask if any member has some Operational/repair on that Division's Panzer before she rejoined the Russian Front again in November 1943 ? Thank

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

I do

https://panzerworld.com/1-panzer-division-october-1943

[Kelvin]

I do

https://panzerworld.com/1-panzer-division-october-1943

Hello, Christian, thank a lot for your help. But any report in this period contains their status in VK 1801 and 1601 ? Thank.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

This is what I've been able to locate in the unit overviews:

August 1943
Armored intelligence platooon/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.
II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: One VK 1801.
Armored intelligence platoon/II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.

September 1943
Armored intelligence platooon/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.
II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: One VK 1801.
Armored intelligence platoon/II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.
37. Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung: 3 'Pz Bef Wg', 1 'Kdo Pz Wg'.

October 1943
Armored intelligence platooon/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.
II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: 1 VK 1801.
5. Kompanie/II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: 1 VK 601.
37. Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung: 3 'Pz Bef Wg', 1 'Kdo Pz Wg'.

[Kelvin]

This is what I've been able to locate in the unit overviews:

August 1943
Armored intelligence platooon/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.
II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: One VK 1801.
Armored intelligence platoon/II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.

September 1943
Armored intelligence platooon/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.
II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: One VK 1801.
Armored intelligence platoon/II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.
37. Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung: 3 'Pz Bef Wg', 1 'Kdo Pz Wg'.

October 1943
Armored intelligence platooon/Panzer-Regiment 1: Two 'Bef Wg'.
II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: 1 VK 1801.
5. Kompanie/II. Panzer-Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment 1: 1 VK 601.
37. Panzer-Nachrichten-Abteilung: 3 'Pz Bef Wg', 1 'Kdo Pz Wg'.

Hi, Christian, thank for your data.

[castro323]

1.Panzer-Division
For the period from 10.11. to 20.11.1943
Total (Ready for Use)
74(44) x 7,5cm Pz.V L/70
2(2) x 7,5cm Pz.Bef.Wg.V L/70
93(61) x 7,5cm Pz.IV L/43
9(6) x 7,5cm Pz.III L/24
7(4) x Flamm.Pz.III
7(5) x 5cm Pz.Bef.Wg.III L/60
1(0) x VK.601
7(1) x VK.1801
6(5) x s.F.H.18 Hummel
12(10) x le.F.H.18 Wespe
12(6) x s.I.G.33 Pz.38(t)
20(16) x 7,5cm Pz.38(t)
48(36) x m.Schtz. Sd.Kfz.251/1
6(6) x Gr.W. Sd.Kfz.251/2
1(1) x Kdo. Sd.Kfz.251/6
33(23) x Pi. Sd.Kfz.251/7
3(3) x Krk. Sd.Kfz.251/8
17(12) x Kan. Sd.Kfz.251/9
2(0) x 3,7cm Sd.Kfz.251/10
6(4) x Flamm. Sd.Kfz.251/16
57(46) x le.Schtz. Sd.Kfz.250/1
26(20) x Fu. Sd.Kfz.250/3
3(3) x s.Gr.W. Sd.Kfz.250/7
16(13) x 2cm Sd.Kfz.250/9
6(6) x 3,7cm Sd.Kfz.250/10
11(9) x le.Sp. 2cm Sd.Kfz.222
6(4) x le.Sp.(Fu.) Sd.Kfz.223
6(5) x s.Sp.(Fu.) Sd.Kfz.232 8-Rad
6(6) x s.Sp. 7,5cm Sd.Kfz.233 8-Rad
1(1) x s.gl.gp.Pkw. Sd.Kfz.247 4-Rad
2(2) x kl.Fu. Sd.Kfz.260
4(2) x kl.Fu. Sd.Kfz.261
2(2) x Fu. Sd.Kfz.263 8-Rad

NARA T-313 R391
Panzer-Armeeoberkommando 4
V, Tätigkeitsbericht mit Anlagen

BAMA H17/98
NARA T-78 R733
OKH - Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen

[Kelvin]

1.Panzer-Division
For the period from 10.11. to 20.11.1943
Total (Ready for Use)
74(44) x 7,5cm Pz.V L/70
2(2) x 7,5cm Pz.Bef.Wg.V L/70
93(61) x 7,5cm Pz.IV L/43
9(6) x 7,5cm Pz.III L/24
7(4) x Flamm.Pz.III
7(5) x 5cm Pz.Bef.Wg.III L/60
1(0) x VK.601
7(1) x VK.1801
6(5) x s.F.H.18 Hummel
12(10) x le.F.H.18 Wespe
12(6) x s.I.G.33 Pz.38(t)
20(16) x 7,5cm Pz.38(t)
48(36) x m.Schtz. Sd.Kfz.251/1
6(6) x Gr.W. Sd.Kfz.251/2
1(1) x Kdo. Sd.Kfz.251/6
33(23) x Pi. Sd.Kfz.251/7
3(3) x Krk. Sd.Kfz.251/8
17(12) x Kan. Sd.Kfz.251/9
2(0) x 3,7cm Sd.Kfz.251/10
6(4) x Flamm. Sd.Kfz.251/16
57(46) x le.Schtz. Sd.Kfz.250/1
26(20) x Fu. Sd.Kfz.250/3
3(3) x s.Gr.W. Sd.Kfz.250/7
16(13) x 2cm Sd.Kfz.250/9
6(6) x 3,7cm Sd.Kfz.250/10
11(9) x le.Sp. 2cm Sd.Kfz.222
6(4) x le.Sp.(Fu.) Sd.Kfz.223
6(5) x s.Sp.(Fu.) Sd.Kfz.232 8-Rad
6(6) x s.Sp. 7,5cm Sd.Kfz.233 8-Rad
1(1) x s.gl.gp.Pkw. Sd.Kfz.247 4-Rad
2(2) x kl.Fu. Sd.Kfz.260
4(2) x kl.Fu. Sd.Kfz.261
2(2) x Fu. Sd.Kfz.263 8-Rad

NARA T-313 R391
Panzer-Armeeoberkommando 4
V, Tätigkeitsbericht mit Anlagen

BAMA H17/98
NARA T-78 R733
OKH - Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen

Hello, Castro323, thank so much for your help, very detailed. Is it document is on 10th or 20th Nov, I don't get it ? Thank

[castro323]

Hello, Castro323, thank so much for your help, very detailed. Is it document is on 10th or 20th Nov, I don't get it ? Thank

According to original documents, it covers every 10 days.
Meaning it covers 11.10.1943 , 11.11.1943 , 11.12.1943 , 11.13.1943 .... 11.19.1943 , 11.20.1943 but
the documents do not cover every single day. It is only every 10 days.

[Sean Oliver]

Do the 4.Pz.Armee documents list other divisional vehicles and weapons i. e. flak, mortars, Pak, artillery, mg. etc?
It is interesting to note that during 43-45, full strength Panzer divs or Soviet tank corps newly arriving at the front after refitting will typically see their tank strength drop rapidly from about 100 or more down to 20-30 within a couple weeks of combat. After that, numbers of MBT tended to stabilize arpund 20 for awhile before eventually losing all of them.

[Kelvin]

Hello, Castro323, thank so much for your help, very detailed. Is it document is on 10th or 20th Nov, I don't get it ? Thank

According to original documents, it covers every 10 days.
Meaning it covers 11.10.1943 , 11.11.1943 , 11.12.1943 , 11.13.1943 .... 11.19.1943 , 11.20.1943 but
the documents do not cover every single day. It is only every 10 days.

Hello, Castro323, thank for your explanation. I would like to ask if your document contain same kind of information for 1.SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, if you have, may u post it, thank again.

[castro323]

Hello, Castro323, thank for your explanation. I would like to ask if your document contain same kind of information for 1.SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, if you have, may u post it, thank again.

1.SS-Panzer-Division
For the period from 11.11. to 21.11.1943
Total (Ready for Use)
22(10) x 8,8cm Pz.VI L/56
3(2) x 8,8cm Pz.Bef.Wg.VI L/56
81(6) x 7,5cm Pz.V L/70
2(2) x 7,5cm Pz.Bef.Wg.V Sd.Kfz.267
2(2) x 7,5cm Pz.Bef.Wg.V Sd.Kfz.268
87(18) x 7,5cm Pz.IV L/48
1(1) x 5cm Pz.III L/42
6(6) x Pz.Bef.Wg.III Sd.Kfz.266
2(2) x Pz.Bef.Wg.III Sd.Kfz.267
1(1) x Pz.Bef.Wg.III Sd.Kfz.268
4(2) x 2cm Pz.II
41(29) x 7,5cm StuG.III L/48
9(6) x 10,5cm StuH.42
4(2) x s.F.H.18 Hummel
11(9) x le.F.H.18 Wespe
12(8) x s.I.G.33 Pz.38(t)
24(12) x 7,5cm Pz.38(t)
24(17) x m.Schtz. Sd.Kfz.251/1
3(2) x Gr.W. Sd.Kfz.251/2
1(1) x Pi. Sd.Kfz.251/5
1(1) x Kdo. Sd.Kfz.251/6
11(10) x Pi. Sd.Kfz.251/7
5(3) x Krk. Sd.Kfz.251/8
3(2) x Kan. Sd.Kfz.251/9
4(3) x 3,7cm Sd.Kfz.251/10
27(18) x le.Schtz. Sd.Kfz.250/1
24(15) x Fu. Sd.Kfz.250/3
4(3) x s.Gr.W. Sd.Kfz.250/7
3(2) x 3,7cm Sd.Kfz.250/10
4(3) x le.Sp. Sd.Kfz.221
7(5) x le.Sp. 2cm Sd.Kfz.222
6(4) x le.Sp.(Fu.) Sd.Kfz.223
6(4) x s.Sp.(Fu.) Sd.Kfz.232 8-Rad
2(2) x s.gl.gp.Pkw. Sd.Kfz.247 4-Rad
11(8) x kl.Fu. Sd.Kfz.261

[castro323]

Do the 4.Pz.Armee documents list other divisional vehicles and weapons i. e. flak, mortars, Pak, artillery, mg. etc?
It is interesting to note that during 43-45, full strength Panzer divs or Soviet tank corps newly arriving at the front after refitting will typically see their tank strength drop rapidly from about 100 or more down to 20-30 within a couple weeks of combat. After that, numbers of MBT tended to stabilize arpund 20 for awhile before eventually losing all of them.

Yes, the document does contain other divisional vehicles and weapons but not much on artillery. Most are for armored vehicles.

[Kelvin]

Hello, Castro323, thank for your explanation. I would like to ask if your document contain same kind of information for 1.SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, if you have, may u post it, thank again.

1.SS-Panzer-Division
For the period from 11.11. to 21.11.1943
Total (Ready for Use)
22(10) x 8,8cm Pz.VI L/56
3(2) x 8,8cm Pz.Bef.Wg.VI L/56
81(6) x 7,5cm Pz.V L/70
2(2) x 7,5cm Pz.Bef.Wg.V Sd.Kfz.267
2(2) x 7,5cm Pz.Bef.Wg.V Sd.Kfz.268
87(18) x 7,5cm Pz.IV L/48
1(1) x 5cm Pz.III L/42
6(6) x Pz.Bef.Wg.III Sd.Kfz.266
2(2) x Pz.Bef.Wg.III Sd.Kfz.267
1(1) x Pz.Bef.Wg.III Sd.Kfz.268
4(2) x 2cm Pz.II
41(29) x 7,5cm StuG.III L/48
9(6) x 10,5cm StuH.42
4(2) x s.F.H.18 Hummel
11(9) x le.F.H.18 Wespe
12(8) x s.I.G.33 Pz.38(t)
24(12) x 7,5cm Pz.38(t)
24(17) x m.Schtz. Sd.Kfz.251/1
3(2) x Gr.W. Sd.Kfz.251/2
1(1) x Pi. Sd.Kfz.251/5
1(1) x Kdo. Sd.Kfz.251/6
11(10) x Pi. Sd.Kfz.251/7
5(3) x Krk. Sd.Kfz.251/8
3(2) x Kan. Sd.Kfz.251/9
4(3) x 3,7cm Sd.Kfz.251/10
27(18) x le.Schtz. Sd.Kfz.250/1
24(15) x Fu. Sd.Kfz.250/3
4(3) x s.Gr.W. Sd.Kfz.250/7
3(2) x 3,7cm Sd.Kfz.250/10
4(3) x le.Sp. Sd.Kfz.221
7(5) x le.Sp. 2cm Sd.Kfz.222
6(4) x le.Sp.(Fu.) Sd.Kfz.223
6(4) x s.Sp.(Fu.) Sd.Kfz.232 8-Rad
2(2) x s.gl.gp.Pkw. Sd.Kfz.247 4-Rad
11(8) x kl.Fu. Sd.Kfz.261

Hello, Castro323, thank again and very much appreciated.

[Sean Oliver]

I think we have a "Let's Build the Battle of the Kiev Salient 1943" subject forming....

[Cult Icon]

I think we have a "Let's Build the Battle of the Kiev Salient 1943" subject forming....

some material:

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=53017&hilit=Kiev+Salient+1943

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=28691&hilit=Kiev+Salient+1943