Squad level firepower comparisons

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yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#151

Post by yantaylor » 07 Dec 2018, 22:38

Brady wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 17:23
@yantaylor , this was posted by you above, but this does nit look like a typical Italian Rifle squad, circa 40/41,correct me if I am wrong

ITALIAN INFANTRY SQUAD:
LMG Section:
NCO/Section Leader (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)
2 x LMG Teams Each Containing;
NCO (Pistol)
Pvt/LMG Gunner (M30 LMG + Pistol)
2 x Pvts/Ammunition Bearers (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)
Rifle Section:
NCO/Assistant Leader (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)
8 x Privates (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)
Hi Brady, I remember that TO&E, but this is the one I am currently working with as I amended that one with a new version with one of the board members [I can't recall who, was it you Gary?] Here is the new version;

Corporal/Section Leader (9mm M.38 SMG)
Lance Corporal/Assistant Leader (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)
9 x Privates (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)

LIGHT MACHINE GUN SECTION:
Platoon Sergeant/Section Leader (9mm M.38 SMG)

2 x LMG DETACHMENTS EACH CONTAINING:

2 x LMG TEAMS EACH CONTAINING:
Corporal/Gunner (9mm M.34 Pistol)
Pvt/Assistant Gunner (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)
2 x Pvts/Ammunition Carriers (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)
6.5mm M.30 Light Machine Gun

Yan.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#152

Post by Brady » 08 Dec 2018, 00:14

So what was there platoon structure like, above I see a lmg section x2 and one all rifle squad, for 28 men ?

TY, btw


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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#153

Post by Gary Kennedy » 08 Dec 2018, 03:57

The Italian Rifle Pl, at least as outlined in the 1943 manual I was gifted, was 42 strong on paper. Pl cmdr and runner overseeing two 'Sections', termed Squadra Fucilieri, each of 20 men. As outlined above these were then subdivided into 'un gruppo mitragliatori' and 'un gruppo fucilleri'. The former equated to an LMG squad with two teams (1 NCO gunner with LMG and 3 men each) under an NCO, and the latter a Rifle Squad of 11 men (which included two NCOs). It doesn't really correspond to anything else in terms of structure for the other combatant nations that I've seen.

When the Italian Combat Groups were formed on the Allied side, the British Army issued them with war establishment tables. These actually stayed quite close to what you can see of earlier Italian Army organisation. The description for the Italian Rifle Platoon was;

Platoon HQ - Officer, runner, 2-inch Mortar NCO and 3 mortarmen
Two Rifle Squads - each divided into a Rifle Section of 7 men and an LMG Section of 11 men and 4 LMGs.

Frustratingly, these WE tables do not make any mention of any type of weapon anywhere in them, just personnel and transport. I can only presume the LMG Sections had 4 guns each, which doubled their old allocation, but I wonder if the way the description is drafted it meant 4 LMGs for the whole Rifle Platoon? Answers on a postcard please...

I recall some correspondence a very long time ago with a couple of Italian enthusiasts, and if I remember right they reckoned in the pre-war or early war period the Italian Army was based on a Rifle Squad around 12 strong, with a single LMG and three Squads per Platoon. The Italian Army though had lots of variations for Infantry units, and it's an area I've been unable to obtain any contemporary documentation for, aside the couple of sources detailed above.

Gary

(Yan - member of the board, I still don't have a key to the executive washroom! ;>)

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#154

Post by Eugen Pinak » 08 Dec 2018, 13:05

Gary Kennedy wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 03:57
The Italian Rifle Pl, at least as outlined in the 1943 manual I was gifted, was 42 strong on paper. Pl cmdr and runner overseeing two 'Sections', termed Squadra Fucilieri, each of 20 men. As outlined above these were then subdivided into 'un gruppo mitragliatori' and 'un gruppo fucilleri'. The former equated to an LMG squad with two teams (1 NCO gunner with LMG and 3 men each) under an NCO, and the latter a Rifle Squad of 11 men (which included two NCOs). It doesn't really correspond to anything else in terms of structure for the other combatant nations that I've seen.
Officially, that's the standard "French" squad organization, but with 2 LMGs instead of one. And no, 'gruppo mitragliatori' was not divided into teams, unless in exceptional circumstances.
The devil was in the provision, that there was no LMG group leader. This means, that squad leader was "de facto" in direct command of both LMG teams plus separate rifle group. IMHO, this ambiguity was a serious doctrinal flaw of the Italian manual.
Gary Kennedy wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 03:57
I recall some correspondence a very long time ago with a couple of Italian enthusiasts, and if I remember right they reckoned in the pre-war or early war period the Italian Army was based on a Rifle Squad around 12 strong, with a single LMG and three Squads per Platoon. The Italian Army though had lots of variations for Infantry units, and it's an area I've been unable to obtain any contemporary documentation for, aside the couple of sources detailed above.
Until early 1939 Italian rifle squad consisted of 12 men = 1 squad leader, LMG group of 5 men (with 1 LMG) and rifle group of 6 men. Platoon had 3 squads plus platoon commander.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#155

Post by yantaylor » 08 Dec 2018, 13:50

Gary Kennedy wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 03:57

(Yan - member of the board, I still don't have a key to the executive washroom! ;>)
:D

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#156

Post by Gary Kennedy » 08 Dec 2018, 15:42

This is a page from the Italian manual showing the Section in file, which nicely illustrates the format. Two such Sections made a Platoon.

Gary
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#157

Post by Brady » 08 Dec 2018, 17:58

So basically you have two light MG’s sections supporting a squad what were the advantages and disadvantages to this Arrangement, it seems quite alien to me

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#158

Post by yantaylor » 08 Dec 2018, 21:39

Yes just what I have, I thought it was Gary who helped me out.

Maybe they divided the 11 man gruppo fucilieri and the squadron commander into two six man sections and each section had one LMG gruppo?

That would give them two sections of 9 men led by a NCO, armed with rifles and a LMG, like what most nations around that time had.

Yan

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#159

Post by Eugen Pinak » 09 Dec 2018, 12:58

Brady wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 17:58
So basically you have two light MG’s sections supporting a squad what were the advantages and disadvantages to this Arrangement, it seems quite alien to me
Advantage is: squad now has two unreliable LMGs instead of one. The best situation in attack one LMG can always fire while the other moving. The worst situation squad will have one LMG even if one LMG will broke.

Disadvantage: such organization greatly increased burden, placed on the shoulders of the sergeant-squad leader. And if he becomes a casualty, there was nobody to effectively replace him - there was only one NCO in the squad. It's worth noting, that reductions of number of squads in the platoon was intended to remove some burden from the shoulders of the lieutenants-platoon commanders.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#160

Post by Eugen Pinak » 09 Dec 2018, 13:01

yantaylor wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 21:39
That would give them two sections of 9 men led by a NCO, armed with rifles and a LMG, like what most nations around that time had.
Not possible. First of all, there were no such provisions in the regulations. Second, there was only one NCO in the squad.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#161

Post by yantaylor » 09 Dec 2018, 15:19

Hi Fred, the Belgians did a good conversion job with the BAR by adding a barrel changing option and also capabilities for belt fire I think, they also had a pistol grip too.

Yan.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#162

Post by stg 44 » 09 Dec 2018, 17:00

yantaylor wrote:
09 Dec 2018, 15:19
Hi Fred, the Belgians did a good conversion job with the BAR by adding a barrel changing option and also capabilities for belt fire I think, they also had a pistol grip too.

Yan.
They didn't have a belt feed option. The Swedes did develop a flawed belt feed for their BAR.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#163

Post by yantaylor » 09 Dec 2018, 22:03

Yes the Swedes, you are correct, I knew that Sweden along with Belgium and Poland used the BAR.
I wasn't sure which one used the belt feed system, should have checked my web site.
But was the other improvements made by Fabrique Nationale, any good? The USA didn't seem to adopt these improvements, even after WW2 they used the same basic BAR in Korea and beyond.

Yan.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#164

Post by stg 44 » 10 Dec 2018, 03:34

yantaylor wrote:
09 Dec 2018, 22:03
Yes the Swedes, you are correct, I knew that Sweden along with Belgium and Poland used the BAR.
I wasn't sure which one used the belt feed system, should have checked my web site.
But was the other improvements made by Fabrique Nationale, any good? The USA didn't seem to adopt these improvements, even after WW2 they used the same basic BAR in Korea and beyond.

Yan.
Yes, eventually they turned it into the FN MAG, using the MG42 feed system and IIRC trigger system. The US stuck with the legacy BARs with bad improvements unique to US versions because...I'm not exactly sure. Not made here syndrome? They certainly had that problem with the 7.62 NATO/M14. Later though they adopted the FN MAG as the M240 and the FN Minimi as the M249, learning their lesson from previously ignoring quality Belgian small arms developments. John Browning set up in Belgium, so his legacy certainly seemed to have lived on there.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#165

Post by yantaylor » 10 Dec 2018, 14:34

Thank you Stg!

Ian Hogg says in the Jane's guide book, that too much sustained fire with BAR will result in the fore-end bursting into smoke and flames, but when I mentioned this on another board, the ex-US military guys didn't know what I was talking about.

Regards
Yan.

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