Squad level firepower comparisons

[Dunnigan]

Pretty much as Dunnigan outlines (though I've only seen the MG Pls of the Para Inf Bns down as having M1919s, same as the Rifle Pls).

I doublechecked. You are correct, they were M1919's in the MG Platoons in HQ Company in the PIB's. The M1917's didn't look be be broken down easily and jumped with so on paper in the 1943/44 TO&E, there were 44x .30 LMG's.

[Brady]

The odd thing with the AP vs the Ball, is that I had understood that the AP lost energy faster over range than the Ball, so it would seam that the Ball would of been better for engaging aircraft with ?

I did come across this, and while its not about a Parachute Infantry Regiment, it is interesting in that it shows for the 101'st circa Normandy:

81st Airborne Anti-Aircraft Anti-Tank Battalion: ( LTC X.B. Cox)
35 officers and 606 men
3 Batteries of 8 57mm AT guns
3 Batteries of 12 .50cal MG

Presumably those are AA mounts, single, ?

This does seam the only place you would find a 50 call in the Division, during an air drop ?

[Gary Kennedy]

The Para FA Bns (equipped with the 75-mm pack howitzer) included a combined AA/AT Bty. The books by JJ Hays show this Bty with two Pls, each of four .50-cals on M1 mounts, alongside two Pls each with four 37-mm atk guns. He also shows the Abn AA Bn as you outline, three AA MG Btys (each three Pls of four .50-cals on on the M1 or M2 mount) and three AT Btys (each two Pls of four guns, could be 37-mm atk or 40-mm AA). He also shows .50-cals in various other units, but these would mostly appear to be on the larger types of truck so not normally glider borne. Also note that he's only giving the authorised 37-mm atk guns, which remained on the T/Os at least into Aug44. The actual level of substitution by 57-mm guns in the various units of the Abn Divs prior to that is probably worth a thread on its own.

Gary

[Richard Anderson]

The Para FA Bns (equipped with the 75-mm pack howitzer) included a combined AA/AT Bty. The books by JJ Hays show this Bty with two Pls, each of four .50-cals on M1 mounts, alongside two Pls each with four 37-mm atk guns. He also shows the Abn AA Bn as you outline, three AA MG Btys (each three Pls of four .50-cals on on the M1 or M2 mount) and three AT Btys (each two Pls of four guns, could be 37-mm atk or 40-mm AA). He also shows .50-cals in various other units, but these would mostly appear to be on the larger types of truck so not normally glider borne. Also note that he's only giving the authorised 37-mm atk guns, which remained on the T/Os at least into Aug44. The actual level of substitution by 57-mm guns in the various units of the Abn Divs prior to that is probably worth a thread on its own.

Gary that seems a bit scrambled? I don't know who JJ Hays is, but that contradicts the actual T/O&E?

T/O&E 71, 15 October 1942 assigned Division Artillery (T/O&E 6-200), Strength 79/8/1337, 1391 Carbine Cal. .30 M1, 4 Gun AT 37mm AT or 40mm AA, 58 MG Cal. .50 HB, 36 Howitzer, 75mm Pack, 177 Launcher, AT Rocket, 33 Pistol Cal. .45, 27 Trailer ¼-Ton, 25 Trailer 1-Ton, Cargo, 102 Truck ¼-Ton, 5 Truck ¾-Ton Weapons Carrier, 25 Truck 2 ½-Ton, 20 Hand Cart.

The Airborne Antiaircraft Battalion (T/O 4-275) gave: Strength 27/1/452, 353 Carbine Cal. .30 M1, 24 Gun 37mm AT or 40mm AA, 36 MG Cal. .50 HB, 2 Pistol Cal. .45, 125 Rifle Cal. .30 M1903, 43 Trailer ¼-Ton, 43 Truck ¼-Ton, 2 Truck ¾-Ton Weapons Carrier.

The 24 February 1944 changes replaced those with:

Division Artillery, Strength 95/10/1243, 8 Airplane, Liaison, 1093 Carbine Cal. .30 M1, 26 Hand Cart, 37 MG Cal. .50 HB, 40 Howitzer 75-mm, 173 Launcher, AT Rocket, 255 Pistol Cal. .45, 50 Motor Scooter, 79 Trailer ¼-Ton, 27 Trailer 1-Ton, 111 Truck ¼-Ton, 8 Truck ¾-Ton Weapons Carrier, 27 Truck 2 ½-Ton Cargo. Bazookas replaced the 37mm AT role and assigned the space to an additional 75mm battery.

Antiaircraft Battalion, Strength 29/2/458, 438 Carbine Cal. .30 M1, 42 hand Cart, 24 Gun 37mm AA, 36 MG Cal. .50 HB, 48 SMG Cal. .45, 3 Pistol Cal. .45, 15 Motor Scooter, 44 Trailer ¼-Ton, 2 Trailer 1-Ton, 44 Truck ¼-Ton, 2 Truck ¾-Ton Weapons Carrier, 2 Truck 2 ½-Ton Cargo. It was decided to eliminate the dual AA/AT role of the battalion, only to have ETOUSA resurrect the requirement on a theater basis for NEPTUNE. They also substituted the 57mm for the 37mm in the division, using theater reserve stocks (and di the same in the 2d and 3d AD).

[Gary Kennedy]

Probably more to do with my transcription skills than the original data from Hays (he published a series on US Army T/Os via Military Press). He was working from the T/Os and I don't think was trying to incorporate the specific changes made by units in the field.

Gary

[Brady]

What I am wondering is how they took the 50 calls into action, presumably glider born, and presumably supported by a Jeep ?

[Gary Kennedy]

Referring back to Hays again, for Sep42 he shows the AA Pls of the AA MG Btys with just two Jeeps and trailers (at Pl HQ) and four MG Squads, each 4 men with no transport. The changes of Feb44 add two handcarts to Pl HQ. Dec44 has two Jeeps and trailers at Pl HQ and one handcart with each Squad.

Gary

[Brady]

To Go back to the beginning, How did the Infantry Anti Tank Rifles feature in the establishments of the German, French and British and Italian Army's of 1940 ?

And Infantry HEAT Rifle grenades, afik the British had them in the BOF, but the first German use was on Crete by FJ (afik) and I have no clue about French use of for the BOF ? (or if they even had any)

[Gary Kennedy]

The British Boys anti-tank rifle was issued on the basis of one per Rifle Platoon in the standard Infantry Battalion, and one per Section in the Motor Platoon of the Motor Battalion. There were further issues throughout the Inf Bn (including one per Section of three carriers) and the Motor Bn (one per carrier in the Scout Pls). It's generally said that units of the 1940 BEF were short of much equipment, but I've never seen any figures on the likely deficits of Platoon level items such as the Boys, Bren guns and 2-in mortars. The British Army's rifle launched anti-tank grenade was the No.68 but as I understand that was introduced during 1941, so too late for the BEF.

German anti-tank rifles were to be issued three per Rifle Company, handled by a section of an NCO and six men. Actual availability is again a bit 'fuzzy' and I'm not sure there were more than a handful, if indeed any, with units by May 1940.

I'm not sure the 1940 Italian Infantry Battalion had any organic anti-tank weapons. The French Army, sadly I've not a clue...

Gary

[yantaylor]

I think a standard French infantry battalion had two 25mm anti-tank guns (either Hotchkiss or Puteaux), which were probably kept in support company along with the 81mm mle 27/31 mortars and Hotchkiss mle 1914 MMGs.

I would guess that the 25mm ATGs were used in a similar way to standard AT rifles, because it was all the Infantry had at battalion to combat armour.

For some diplomatic reason, the BEF had a few of these weapons, which were not all that hot I believe.

Gary is more up to date on this stuff than me, but I am sure that the Italians managed to get around 200 Polish Random 7.92mm anti-tank rifles from German, how these were distributed I don't know. I can't even find a photograph of any Italian troops with one, but they did recieve them and called them ''Fucile Controcarro 35(P)''
I am not 100% on this but the Italian Infantry may have used the Solothurn S-18/1000 for anti-tank use at battalion level.

Yan

[Brady]

I think a standard French infantry battalion had two 25mm anti-tank guns (either Hotchkiss or Puteaux), which were probably kept in support company along with the 81mm mle 27/31 mortars and Hotchkiss mle 1914 MMGs.

I would guess that the 25mm ATGs were used in a similar way to standard AT rifles, because it was all the Infantry had at battalion to combat armour.

For some diplomatic reason, the BEF had a few of these weapons, which were not all that hot I believe.

Gary is more up to date on this stuff than me, but I am sure that the Italians managed to get around 200 Polish Random 7.92mm anti-tank rifles from German, how these were distributed I don't know. I can't even find a photograph of any Italian troops with one, but they did recieve them and called them ''Fucile Controcarro 35(P)''
I am not 100% on this but the Italian Infantry may have used the Solothurn S-18/1000 for anti-tank use at battalion level.

Yan

I know they used them, but I don't how exactly they were incorporated, presumably not a company level asset ?

[yantaylor]

Brady, you would be lucky to find the Solothurns anywhere in a Italian infantry battalion, they even kept their 81mm mortars at regimental level.
Your more likely to see 20/65 m35 or 47/32 m35 with front line infantry units, but I am sure that there is someone on this board who is more savvy on the Italian army then I.

Yan

[Eugen Pinak]

I know they used them, but I don't how exactly they were incorporated, presumably not a company level asset ?

In 1941 "African" organization Italians had both 20-mm ATR and 47-mm ATG moved to company level.

[yantaylor]

Hi Eugen, are you certain that the standard Italian infantry company had 20mm Solothurns? The troops in that picture are Bersaglieri.
Are you sure that you don't mean 20/65 M35s as both these and 47/32 M35s were added to Infantry units in 1942 in an effort to bolster their fire power.
Some souces say that he Italian army had around 300 ''Fucile Anticarro da 20mm'', but I don't know how many of these actually arrived in North Africa, so maybe only selected units got them, like the Bersaglieri for example.

Yan

[Eugen Pinak]

Hi Eugen, are you certain that the standard Italian infantry company had 20mm Solothurns? The troops in that picture are Bersaglieri.
Are you sure that you don't mean 20/65 M35s as both these and 47/32 M35s were added to Infantry units in 1942 in an effort to bolster their fire power.

Sorry, my mistake Of course, I meant 194_2_ organization.

As for the numbers: "only" 300 ATR is enough to equip 100 companies = c. 30 battalions = c.15 regiments = 7+ divisions.