Squad level firepower comparisons

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Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#226

Post by Brady » 29 Oct 2019, 15:59

So nothing for NW Europe circa 44/45 ?

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#227

Post by Brady » 13 Dec 2019, 19:25

To Jump back to the Beginning, in France in 1940, Typically the Germans were still equipped with the same number of SMG's per squad (and or Platoon) as we would see late war, except they were largely a Mix of MP 38's and MP 40's, and the MP 34 was mostly used by the SS if I recall ? (referring to Front Line units)

And the ZB vz. 26, was as I recall largely a SS LMG substitute for the MG 34, and not something found in non SS front line units ?


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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#228

Post by Brady » 05 Jan 2020, 19:10

Punt,

See the last question (above), and this:

The Chauchat and the FM 24/29 and the French in 1940, I am looking for some sort of back up on my understanding of the French Rifle Squad for this time frame, Presumably the Allotment of one SMG and one LMG and a Rifle grenade could be presumed to be a deluxe out fitting, my understanding is that the SMG's like the MAS 38 were on the rare side, and the idea of one LMG per rifle squad seams idealistic as well, but is that either one Chauchat or a FM 24/29 or was The Chauchat more common ?

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yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#229

Post by yantaylor » 13 May 2020, 20:41

Hi everyone, hope you don't mind that I open up an old thread but...

I have put together an Italian Infantry Platoon circa 1940, I have added as much Italian text as I could.
I also added the ranks as best I could, but I don't know if the Italians used corporals or lance corporals, but I have added them anyway.
I don't know if the MAB M38 SMG was issued to the NCOs large numbers, but I am hoping that this platoon would be in service from 1939 to 1943.

PLOTONE FUCILIERI
IL COMANDO:
Comandante di Plotone (9mm M.34 Pistol)
Fucili (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)

TWO SQUADRA FUCILIERI EACH CONTAINING:
Comandante di Squadra (9mm M.38 SMG)

GRUPPO FUCILIERI:
Vice Comandante di Squadra (9mm M.38 SMG)
Lancia Caporale (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)
6 x Fucili (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)

GRUPPO FUCILI MITRAGLIATORI:
Lancia Caporale (9mm M.34 Pistol)
Fucili (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)
2 x Fucili (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)
6.5mm M.30 Light Machine Gun

Here are the ranks in Italian and English [hope I havent balls it up]

Tenente (Lieutenant)
Sergente (Sergeant)
Caporale (Corporal)
Lancia Caporale (Lance Corporal)
Fucili (Private)

Thanks
Yan

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#230

Post by Brady » 14 May 2020, 07:27


gebhk
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#231

Post by gebhk » 14 May 2020, 10:37

Hi Yantaylor

Alas the ranks are a bit of a what you said :wink: . Maybe you used a computer translation programme? Anyways:
Fucili are rifles (sing fucile)- the actual guns not the men wielding these.
Riflemen are fucilieri (sing fuciliere)
However, AFAIK (unless some regiments used honorific ranks) rifleman is not a rank, it is a function. A private is a soldato
Lance-corporal = caporale
Corporal = caporal maggiore

You would have to check an actual establishment, but I suspect that it would have allowed for a range of ranks as platoon leaders eg:
Aspirante (no equivalent in British ranks, a 'student officer')
Sotto tenente (2nd lieutenant)
Tenente (lieutenant)
and possibly an NCO in the third platoon of the company, but that is just a guess (incidentally, unlike in most armies, apparently corporals were considered to be part of the enlisted men in the Italian army, not NCOs)
Last edited by gebhk on 14 May 2020, 13:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#232

Post by gebhk » 14 May 2020, 11:20

To slot those ranks into the excellent diagram supplied by Brady:
The squad leader (comandante di squadra), a sergeant (sergente), was also the leader of the lmg section (gruppo mitragliatori) which was divided into 2 'guns' (1st and 2nd arma) each with a caporale team leader (capo arma) and three soldati: gun carrier (porta arma) and two ammo numbers (porta munizioni). Not 100% sure who was the gunner but, if the pattern found in most armies was followed, it would have been the porta arma.

The assistant squad leader (vice comandante di squadra), a corporal (caporal maggiore), was also the rifle section (gruppo fucilieri) leader.

The platoon leader's man was a runner (rather than a fuciliere) and, I presume, also his batman.

Thus, although the platoon had only 2 squads, these were large and, with two lmgs, gave the company a greater number of lmgs (12) than the more usual 9 in most armies. It did not have organic support weapons but, I presume, was likely to receive a pair of MMGs and/or some of the 18 45mm mortars held by the battalion weapon's company.

Health warning! The above is based on received wisdom from a variety of secondary sources. However I have not verified this from original sources and would be happy to stand corrected if anyone has access to those.

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yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#233

Post by yantaylor » 14 May 2020, 15:45

Now that is a really helpful post! Thanks gebhk, I can amend my work now thanks to your help.

I wanted to call the platoon leaders man a runner or batman but I couldn’t be sure on the right term for him. It is more respectful to the Italian army if I named them in Italian as I can always add a list at the bottom listing the ranks in both Italian and English translations.

Yan

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Sheldrake
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#234

Post by Sheldrake » 14 May 2020, 16:10

gebhk wrote:
14 May 2020, 11:20
To slot those ranks into the excellent diagram supplied by Brady:
The squad leader (comandante di squadra), a sergeant (sergente), was also the leader of the lmg section (gruppo mitragliatori) which was divided into 2 'guns' (1st and 2nd arma) each with a caporale team leader (capo arma) and three soldati: gun carrier (porta arma) and two ammo numbers (porta munizioni). Not 100% sure who was the gunner but, if the pattern found in most armies was followed, it would have been the porta arma.

The assistant squad leader (vice comandante di squadra), a corporal (caporal maggiore), was also the rifle section (gruppo fucilieri) leader.

The platoon leader's man was a runner (rather than a fuciliere) and, I presume, also his batman.

Thus, although the platoon had only 2 squads, these were large and, with two lmgs, gave the company a greater number of lmgs (12) than the more usual 9 in most armies. It did not have organic support weapons but, I presume, was likely to receive a pair of MMGs and/or some of the 18 45mm mortars held by the battalion weapon's company.

Health warning! The above is based on received wisdom from a variety of secondary sources. However I have not verified this from original sources and would be happy to stand corrected if anyone has access to those.
The Italian Army doesn't attract as much attention as others of WW2. There was an interesting paper by Brian R Sullivan on The Italian Soldier in Combat June 1940-September 1943: Myths realities and Explanations on in the collection by Paul Addison published in 1997 as "A Time to Kill"
This includes a statement that the Italian Biomnary division was under armed with only 32 machine guns in a regiment. Does this only refer to heavy machine guns.

It also says the 45 mm mortar was seen as ineffective and the 81mm mortar had poorer fragmentation than comparable weapons oinother armies and tyhat the infantry were equipped with a mixture of rifles of different calibres.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#235

Post by gebhk » 14 May 2020, 17:26

I wanted to call the platoon leaders man a runner or batman but I couldn’t be sure on the right term for him.
It is attendente - ie orderly/batman. However in many armies the platoon leader's batman doubled as his combat runner (or vv). Given that he is the only chap available to the poor old Italian camandante, I am sure the same was true here.

You should probably check out the Comando Supremo website :D

Regarding the Brixia - I suspect it gets a bad press because from such a heavy and ridiculously overengineered contraption, you would expect a lot more - not forgetting it was a battalion-level weapon. Given all of that, its shell was puny so you can't expect much of a blast from it and the range was mediocre. The only other similarly puny shell was dished out by the French mle 37 but this was an unashamedly platoon-level weapon which weighed about one third of the Brixia and had a ROF more than double. The French had bigger mortars for company and battalion level so this was an entirely acceptable performance. The only other similar weapon weight-wise and range- wise was the german GrW 36 but this delivered a decent blast and had a n ROF twice that of the Brixia. And, again, this was a platoon-level weapon with no pretensions of grandeur. In short, the Brixia seemed to combine the worst of all worlds: the weight, ROF and complexity of a much heavier weapon with the limited range and effectiveness of the round of a very light one. Perhaps its only redeeming feature was its accuracy.

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yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#236

Post by yantaylor » 14 May 2020, 20:38

Does anyone know how many SMGs the platoon had, would it just be the sergeant or the corporals too?

Ian

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#237

Post by yantaylor » 15 May 2020, 21:02

I read before that the Infantry platoons had no SMGs, only rifles and LMGs + a few pistols.
If we go higher to company level, I have this;

Compagnia Commando

Company Commander (9mm M.34 Pistol)
Assistant Commander (9mm M.34 Pistol)
Sergeant (9mm M.34 Pistol)
2 x Attendente (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)
10 x Soldato (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)
(The ten privates were split between Signal, Medical and Ammunition Sections)

Can anyone elaborate on these number and ranks please?

Yan

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#238

Post by Eugen Pinak » 16 May 2020, 21:55

yantaylor wrote:
13 May 2020, 20:41
I have put together an Italian Infantry Platoon circa 1940, I have added as much Italian text as I could.
I also added the ranks as best I could, but I don't know if the Italians used corporals or lance corporals, but I have added them anyway.
I don't know if the MAB M38 SMG was issued to the NCOs large numbers, but I am hoping that this platoon would be in service from 1939 to 1943.

PLOTONE FUCILIERI
IL COMANDO:
Comandante di Plotone (9mm M.34 Pistol)
Fucili (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)

TWO SQUADRA FUCILIERI EACH CONTAINING:
Comandante di Squadra (9mm M.38 SMG)

GRUPPO FUCILIERI:
Vice Comandante di Squadra (9mm M.38 SMG)
Lancia Caporale (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)
6 x Fucili (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)

GRUPPO FUCILI MITRAGLIATORI:
Lancia Caporale (9mm M.34 Pistol)
Fucili (6.5mm M.91 Rifle)
2 x Fucili (6.5mm M.91 Rifles)
6.5mm M.30 Light Machine Gun

Here are the ranks in Italian and English [hope I havent balls it up]

Tenente (Lieutenant)
Sergente (Sergeant)
Caporale (Corporal)
Lancia Caporale (Lance Corporal)
Fucili (Private)
AFAIK.
1. This "Google-translate" Italian looks really ridiculous.
2. Only unit in the rifle battalion, that had SMGs, was recon platoon. Rifle platoons hand no SMGs (at least early in the war).
3.Other models of firearms can be used as well.
4. Platoon had HQ (1 officer and 1 private (orderly and messenger)) and 2 squads (each: 1 NCO, 17 privates (of them 3 - senior (deputy squad leader and 2 LMG team leaders), 2 LMG). In 1941 2 more privates, trained from scout duties, were added to each squad.
5. Don't have much info about rifle company, but in 1939 it had 2 messengers on foot and 1 on bicycle.

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yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#239

Post by yantaylor » 17 May 2020, 20:49

This "Google-translate" Italian looks really ridiculous.

Well I am trying my best Eugen, I am English and speak no Italian at all.
What level would you find the recon platoon, I would like to build one up if I can.

Ian

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

#240

Post by gebhk » 18 May 2020, 00:21

Hi Yantaylor

Some other odds and sods. Either the LMG gunners had a pistol as well as their LMG or else the team leaders had pistols instead of rifles. The Squad Commander was supposed to have a carbine and everyone else had a rifle. The LMG ammo carriers (porta munizioni) each carried a box of 300 rounds for the LMG.

Apparently it was usual practice to attach one Brixia light mortar team (4 men) to each rifle platoon.

Couldn't find much on the scout platoon (plotone esploratori) other than that it had an officer and 40 men, divided into 3x 13-man sections (squadra esploratori of comandante di squadra; vice comandante di squadra; and 11 esploratori) plus platoon HQ of commandante and attendente. There were no LMGs in the platoon.

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