Squad level firepower comparisons

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yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 30 Oct 2021 19:58

Richard, how did you come to meet MacDonald, was it by phone or in person, as you say "we" asked him, sounds as if he met a group of you.
Its a shame he couldn't have lived long enough to be part of a forum like this, he would have been a great asset.

Ian

Richard Anderson
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Richard Anderson » 31 Oct 2021 03:01

yantaylor wrote:
30 Oct 2021 19:58
Richard, how did you come to meet MacDonald, was it by phone or in person, as you say "we" asked him, sounds as if he met a group of you.
Its a shame he couldn't have lived long enough to be part of a forum like this, he would have been a great asset.

Ian
Mac and "Doc" Cole of OCMH were both consultant reviewers for the Ardennes Campaign Data Base completed by DMSi for the US Army CAA in 1990. I was one of the leads on the project and was able to spend some time with both of them. They were both marvelous gentlemen.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 31 Oct 2021 20:36

Thank you Richard.
I had heard that Mac turned down numerous requests to turn his book into a movie, don't know how true it is but it would have made one hell of a movie.

Ian

brewmaxwell649
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by brewmaxwell649 » 05 Nov 2021 11:47

Interesting, i remember how ASL did it and they had it closer, that being the US squads had almost double the firepower if there was no mg 42 or bren present, and if present the US squad was still just slightly better

yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 07 Nov 2021 20:25

Have you all noticed the lack of corporals in the US Infantry Platoon, you have an Officer, five Sergeants and the rest made up of Pvt/PFCs.
I think the only corporal in the whole company is the clerk located in the Company HQ.
They must have had a very large Sergeants Mess!

Ian

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 07 Nov 2021 21:12

German use of Captured French Infantry Weapons, Namely Riffles and MG's.

I thought this was largely, not a thing, the use of Captured French Rifles ?

By German Troops, that they issued them to "Other" forces ?

716th Static Infantry Division, may of ?

https://web.archive.org/web/20080713214 ... gerob.html

Anyone have an idea of what Weapons there Infantry Sections had allotted to them ?
Last edited by Brady on 07 Nov 2021 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Nov 2021 21:19

yantaylor wrote:
07 Nov 2021 20:25
Have you all noticed the lack of corporals in the US Infantry Platoon, you have an Officer, five Sergeants and the rest made up of Pvt/PFCs.
I think the only corporal in the whole company is the clerk located in the Company HQ.
They must have had a very large Sergeants Mess!

Ian
Yes, technically the only corporal in the US Army Rifle Company was the Company Clerk. However, the T/5 was also considered a "corporal" and sometimes addressed as the "tech corporal", so there were four others, for a total of five. That contrasts to the 36 sergeants and 2 T/4 "tech sergeants" in the company, so, yes, it was top heavy in sergeants. Part of that was simply evolutionary, corporals were originally the junior NCO with command authority and led the Rifle Squad in the Great War. However, corporal was also the lower pay grade (5, versus the PFC 6, and the Basic Private 7), while there were four sergeants pay grades. Interwar too, the War Department eliminated many sergeant staff positions combining them together in a single "master sergeant" grade (1), followed by the First Sergeant/Technical Sergeant (2), Staff Sergeant (3), and Sergeant (4), before adding the T/4 to grade 4 and T/5 to grade 5 in the late 1930s. The final World War II change was when the 16 June 1942 Pay Readjustment Act elevated the First Sergeant to Grade 1 along with the Master Sergeant.
Last edited by Richard Anderson on 08 Nov 2021 16:48, edited 1 time in total.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

yantaylor
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by yantaylor » 08 Nov 2021 16:14

Great breakdown Richard, thanks!

Ian

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 08 Nov 2021 18:03

Can anyone tell me about this Series, is it a good source on TOE data, for instance would it be able to Tell me what the 716 Infantry division I mentioned above had for it's Infantry TOE's in Normandy ?

I have some sources mentioning that they were Equipped with French Rifles, but I find this hard to believe.

Image


From the Link:

The Infantry battalions had the following equipment10:

I./726: 48 MG, six 5 cm mortars, nine 8 cm mortars; 1. company bicycle mounted.
II./726: 48 MG, nine 5 cm mortars, six 8 cm mortars
III./726: 48 MG, three 5 cm mortars, nine 8 cm mortars; 9. company bicycle mounted.

439. Ost: 41 MG, 15 mortars, 1 Russian 4,5 cm AT gun

I./736: 48 MG, five 5 cm mortars, seven 8 cm mortars; 3. company bicycle mounted.
II./736: 48 MG, six 5 cm mortars, six 8 cm mortars; 8. company bicycle mounted.
III./736: 48 MG, four 5 cm mortars, seven 8 cm mortars; 11. company bicycle mounted.

439. Ost: 45 MG, 9 mortars

441. Ost: 28 MG, 5 mortars

Each infantry regiment had a company with nine light and medium AT guns. These lacked towing vehicles.11

The division had no field replacement battalion.


But No Mention of What Kind of MG's Mortars or Rifles that I can find

Brady
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 08 Nov 2021 18:49

Came across this as well, presumably this is some kind of Typo, The Mention of Three Bren Gunners per Squad, Ambrose, Pegasus Bridge:

Image

Image

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Sheldrake
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Sheldrake » 08 Nov 2021 19:08

Brady wrote:
08 Nov 2021 18:49
Came across this as well, presumably this is some kind of Typo, The Mention of Three Bren Gunners per Squad, Ambrose, Pegasus Bridge:

Image

Image
Its Ambrose and should be checked against sources. I think he meant to write three Bren guns per platoon

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by AETIUS 1980 » 08 Nov 2021 19:26

We must remain vigilant with the figures given for the 716.Inf.Div. These come from the Gliederung of May 1, 1944, and I know from interrogations or testimonies that a significant contribution of materials took place from mid May to early June (le.MG.42, a few 2 cm Flak.30 within 4./Ost.Btel.441 and 642, Panzerfaust. 30 and 30.Klein among Gr.Rgter.726/736, etc ...).
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AETIUS 1980
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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by AETIUS 1980 » 08 Nov 2021 19:36

Almost all of the foreign weapons mentioned are to be classified in the Bodenstandigen Waffen, which one finds within Widerstandsnester or Stützpunkte. Only a few exceptions are recorded within the support units (le.MG. 28 (p) and s.Gr.W mod 278 (f) in particular), and of course within the Ost.Btlen. In the latter, most of the rifles of Russian origin were turned over against the Germans around March 1944, before an operational deployment for the benefit of the 716.Inf.Div.A major upgrade took place for the latter in the last days of May and early June 1944. This phenomenon is also found in the support or contact units of the 716.Inf.Div.

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Gary Kennedy » 08 Nov 2021 19:55

Sheldrake wrote:
08 Nov 2021 19:08
Brady wrote:
08 Nov 2021 18:49
Came across this as well, presumably this is some kind of Typo, The Mention of Three Bren Gunners per Squad, Ambrose, Pegasus Bridge:

Image

Image
Its Ambrose and should be checked against sources. I think he meant to write three Bren guns per platoon
Little bit different from the WE, which was though thoroughly tinkered with by units in the field.

Goodness, well forgetting terminology (Sections, not Squads, Air Landing, not gliderborne), the WE strength of the Platoon was 24 all ranks, they did not have 3-inch mortars in Rifle Pls just the usual 2-inch mortar, there were two sniper rifles per Air Landing Rifle Pl, and indeed three Brens per Pl, not per Section. I wondered if thought the usual three-man gun group each had a Bren gun, rather than being the L-Cpl, No.1 and No.2. And oddly enough, the Platoon commander was authorised a Sten rather than a pistol. Apparently from those few paragraphs they'd have been better armed carrying rocks, though perhaps he was more gracious about the PIAT...

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Re: Squad level firepower comparisons

Post by Brady » 08 Nov 2021 20:37

AETIUS 1980 wrote:
08 Nov 2021 19:36
Almost all of the foreign weapons mentioned are to be classified in the Bodenstandigen Waffen, which one finds within Widerstandsnester or Stützpunkte. Only a few exceptions are recorded within the support units (le.MG. 28 (p) and s.Gr.W mod 278 (f) in particular), and of course within the Ost.Btlen. In the latter, most of the rifles of Russian origin were turned over against the Germans around March 1944, before an operational deployment for the benefit of the 716.Inf.Div.A major upgrade took place for the latter in the last days of May and early June 1944. This phenomenon is also found in the support or contact units of the 716.Inf.Div.
So, no French rifles or MG’s on the 6th of June ?

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