Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

[Juha]

Hubert Meyer in his The 12th SS. The History of the Hitler Youth Panzer Division: Volume Two writes that 24th Lancers lost 14 tanks without giving source, on the other hand viewtopic.php?p=928313#p928313 #54 Post by Cyprek » 19 Jul 2006, 17:30 says that 24th [Lancers] lost 6 Shermans. According to him his figures came from Polish sources.

So who is right, any first-hand sources for H. Meyer's 14 tank?

TIA
Juha

[Tom from Cornwall]

Juha,

Thanks for the link to the old post. Interesting stuff - it would be really interesting to read the Polish war diaries for the 8 August 1944.

It looks like only a trip to the Sikorski Institute and a crash course in military Polish will help!

Regards

Tom

[MarkN]

There was clearly some confusion about the number of losses suffered by the Polish. But thought you may like this...

Tank casualty report sent on the morning of 09 August 1944. Presumably referring to previous day(s)'s effort.



2 x Stuart
26 x Sherman
6 x Cromwell

This is for the division as a whole, not 24th Lancers alone. Please also note it is a "casualty" report NOT a "destroyed tank" report. The cause of the casualty could be anything from e.g. a faulty starter motor needing replacement (ie tank won't start) to a complete write-off due to battle damage.

It also appears that they couldn't make up their mind whether it was Tigers of Panthers. When first spotted, they called Tiger. As they engaged, they called Panther. When it was over, they claimed it was both.


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[Michael Kenny]

What T number is it under?

[MarkN]

What T number is it under?

T7091 - image stamped 0964 but 971st in the series.

Subsequent images...
T1866 - images stamped 0116-0126 but 124-134 in the series.

[Richard Anderson]

What T number is it under?

T7091 - image stamped 0964 but 971st in the series.

Subsequent images...
T1866 - images stamped 0116-0126 but 124-134 in the series.

Thanks, I note that the same page also conforms the disbandment of the 20mm LAA Troops was scheduled for 14 August.

[Juha]

Thousands thanks, Mark!
Excellent info! Now problem is that 24th L was a tank regiment and so to my understanding should have had Shermans. The Cromwell unit of the Polish 1st Armoured Div was the 10th Mounted Rifles. According to Cyprek Polish 2nd Armoured Regiment lost those 26 Shermans and 2 Stuarts and 24th L six Shermans. But it seems that the 10th Armoured Cavalry Bde (the armoured bde of the Polish 1st Armoured Div) lost a total of 26 Shermans and 2 Stuarts and the 10th Mounted Rifles 6 Cromwells.

My understanding have been that the main enemies of the Polish on 8 Aug were Panzer IVs of the 5. and 7. Kompanien of the II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 12 and the JgPz IVs of the 1./SS-Pz.Jg.Abt 12 plus some A/T guns. Panzer IVs were often mistaken as Tigers but JgPz IVs as Panthers?? At least both had the sloped nose but the lack of turret on JgPz??

But anyway
Thanks a lot
Juha

[Juha]

Hello again
looking the messages Mark kindly posted and my notes and the British wartime 1:50,000 map 7F/4 St Pierre-Sur-Dives and noted that the position given for 24 L in the 1720 message, 088550, means that it had moved SE from the position given in Reid's No Holding Back on the page 287 according to
http://normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/foru ... 366/page-3 #53 Pat Curran Oct 24, 2015 . That position was immediately E of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil and immediately S of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil - Conteville road, appr 096567. The latter position fits also the description of the position in Reynolds' Steel Inferno p. 291 in Dell's 1998 reprint.

Hello Tom, if the 24 L came out from the very small wood at 088550, they could easily have taken under fire by Tigers at Cintheaux but the earlier position (appr. 096567) was out of reach from around Cintheaux.

Juha

[j keenan]

Can we establish what time where using are the Allies using English times and the Germans using German time so they would be one hour in front ?

[Juha]

Hello
my understanding is that the times were same, from 2/4 1944 British used Double Summer Time and Germans from 3/4/1944 German Summer Time, both were GMT(Greenwich mean Time) +2.

Juha

[histan]

The British were using Bravo time and so were 2 hours ahead of GMT - from the Date Time Group on the messages posted by MarkN.

Regards

John

[Michael Kenny]

Air view Aug 8th 1944. White arrows point from ambush site.

[j keenan]

Thanks Juha and John
So in the above pics where is the Petite Ravine and the high ground No.2.Troop took up positions and observed the attack of the Polish ?

[Juha]

Hello Michael
thanks a lot for the aerials!

Hello J
The ravine begins from the left lower corner of the first aerial and the dark area running ENE of its marks the SE "bank" of it. No.2.Troop of which sqn?

Juha

[Michael Kenny]

Side by side modern contour map with 1947 air view. Bottom 5 Icons at right switch between views.

https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/comparer ... =doubleMap