Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

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Juha
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Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Juha » 07 Jan 2019 18:39

Hubert Meyer in his The 12th SS. The History of the Hitler Youth Panzer Division: Volume Two writes that 24th Lancers lost 14 tanks without giving source, on the other hand viewtopic.php?p=928313#p928313 #54 Post by Cyprek » 19 Jul 2006, 17:30 says that 24th [Lancers] lost 6 Shermans. According to him his figures came from Polish sources.

So who is right, any first-hand sources for H. Meyer's 14 tank?

TIA
Juha

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 07 Jan 2019 20:36

Juha,

Thanks for the link to the old post. Interesting stuff - it would be really interesting to read the Polish war diaries for the 8 August 1944.

It looks like only a trip to the Sikorski Institute and a crash course in military Polish will help!

Regards

Tom

MarkN
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by MarkN » 08 Jan 2019 00:45

There was clearly some confusion about the number of losses suffered by the Polish. But thought you may like this...

Tank casualty report sent on the morning of 09 August 1944. Presumably referring to previous day(s)'s effort.

Image

2 x Stuart
26 x Sherman
6 x Cromwell

This is for the division as a whole, not 24th Lancers alone. Please also note it is a "casualty" report NOT a "destroyed tank" report. The cause of the casualty could be anything from e.g. a faulty starter motor needing replacement (ie tank won't start) to a complete write-off due to battle damage.

It also appears that they couldn't make up their mind whether it was Tigers of Panthers. When first spotted, they called Tiger. As they engaged, they called Panther. When it was over, they claimed it was both.

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Last edited by MarkN on 08 Jan 2019 00:59, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Jan 2019 00:55

What T number is it under?

MarkN
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by MarkN » 08 Jan 2019 01:02

Michael Kenny wrote:
08 Jan 2019 00:55
What T number is it under?
T7091 - image stamped 0964 but 971st in the series. :wink:

Subsequent images...
T1866 - images stamped 0116-0126 but 124-134 in the series.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Richard Anderson » 08 Jan 2019 01:11

MarkN wrote:
08 Jan 2019 01:02
Michael Kenny wrote:
08 Jan 2019 00:55
What T number is it under?
T7091 - image stamped 0964 but 971st in the series. :wink:

Subsequent images...
T1866 - images stamped 0116-0126 but 124-134 in the series.
Thanks, I note that the same page also conforms the disbandment of the 20mm LAA Troops was scheduled for 14 August. :D
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Juha
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Juha » 08 Jan 2019 02:26

Thousands thanks, Mark!
Excellent info! Now problem is that 24th L was a tank regiment and so to my understanding should have had Shermans. The Cromwell unit of the Polish 1st Armoured Div was the 10th Mounted Rifles. According to Cyprek Polish 2nd Armoured Regiment lost those 26 Shermans and 2 Stuarts and 24th L six Shermans. But it seems that the 10th Armoured Cavalry Bde (the armoured bde of the Polish 1st Armoured Div) lost a total of 26 Shermans and 2 Stuarts and the 10th Mounted Rifles 6 Cromwells.

My understanding have been that the main enemies of the Polish on 8 Aug were Panzer IVs of the 5. and 7. Kompanien of the II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 12 and the JgPz IVs of the 1./SS-Pz.Jg.Abt 12 plus some A/T guns. Panzer IVs were often mistaken as Tigers but JgPz IVs as Panthers?? At least both had the sloped nose but the lack of turret on JgPz??

But anyway
Thanks a lot
Juha

Juha
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Juha » 08 Jan 2019 11:26

Hello again
looking the messages Mark kindly posted and my notes and the British wartime 1:50,000 map 7F/4 St Pierre-Sur-Dives and noted that the position given for 24 L in the 1720 message, 088550, means that it had moved SE from the position given in Reid's No Holding Back on the page 287 according to
http://normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/foru ... 366/page-3 #53 Pat Curran Oct 24, 2015 . That position was immediately E of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil and immediately S of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil - Conteville road, appr 096567. The latter position fits also the description of the position in Reynolds' Steel Inferno p. 291 in Dell's 1998 reprint.

Hello Tom, if the 24 L came out from the very small wood at 088550, they could easily have taken under fire by Tigers at Cintheaux but the earlier position (appr. 096567) was out of reach from around Cintheaux.

Juha

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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by j keenan » 08 Jan 2019 12:10

Can we establish what time where using are the Allies using English times and the Germans using German time so they would be one hour in front ?

Juha
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Juha » 08 Jan 2019 12:17

Hello
my understanding is that the times were same, from 2/4 1944 British used Double Summer Time and Germans from 3/4/1944 German Summer Time, both were GMT(Greenwich mean Time) +2.

Juha

histan
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by histan » 08 Jan 2019 13:37

The British were using Bravo time and so were 2 hours ahead of GMT - from the Date Time Group on the messages posted by MarkN.

Regards

John

Michael Kenny
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Jan 2019 14:01

Air view Aug 8th 1944. White arrows point from ambush site.
(3048)St Aignan Robertmesnil Aug 8 ee.jpg
(3048)St Aignan Robertmesnil Aug 8 bg fff.jpg
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j keenan
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by j keenan » 08 Jan 2019 14:23

Thanks Juha and John
So in the above pics where is the Petite Ravine and the high ground No.2.Troop took up positions and observed the attack of the Polish ?

Juha
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Juha » 08 Jan 2019 14:48

Hello Michael
thanks a lot for the aerials!

Hello J
The ravine begins from the left lower corner of the first aerial and the dark area running ENE of its marks the SE "bank" of it. No.2.Troop of which sqn?

Juha

Michael Kenny
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Re: Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

Post by Michael Kenny » 08 Jan 2019 14:49

Side by side modern contour map with 1947 air view. Bottom 5 Icons at right switch between views.

https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/comparer ... =doubleMap

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