Losses of the Polish 24th Lancers on 8 August 1944 SE of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil?

[j keenan]

MMM 11.50 Flanked the Le Mesnil-Robert farmstead from the right, then advancing fast entering St. Aignan from the east and fighting with shermans of C squadron Northamptonshire Yeomanry. Oddly all with out supporting infantry, until pulling out with the I/SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.25 back to Soignolles.
23 Reynolds page 278
24 Polish Armour 39-45 Osprey page 17 And S.A.Hart page 75

[j keenan]

It would appear some of the movements of 1/SS-Pz.Jg.12 comes from Hurdelbrink recommendation for the Ritterkreuzes des Eisernen Kreuzes page 260 Szamveber

[histan]

Hi MarkN

You are missing this bit from Szamveber:

"At 09:00 hours in the morning the 1.Kompanie reported to SS Panzerjäger Abteilung 12 that it had established positions in Cintheaux from the crossroads to Hill 103.

The Jagdpanzers were previously subordinated directly to the Begleitkompanie .......Their task originally was to advance via Estrees-le-Campagne and occupy the hill west of St. Sylvain.[20]
However, in the meantime the mission was changed. At 11:30 hours the 1.Kompanie was subordinated to .....,Kampfgruppe Prinz...and received the mission of advancing with the tanks {Pz IVs} to occupy St. Agnan de Camisnil and Garcelles-Secqueville. The main objective was to occupy Tilly-la-Campagne."

Ref 23 is Reynolds
Ref 24 is Hart and Polish Armour 1939 -1945.

So he is using other secondary sources to decide on the identity of the 22 tanks they spotted to the east of them and which the engaged.

Regards

John

PS written before previous posts

[MarkN]

Thanks for info on the Szamveber footnotes. It seems they're just excusing/explaining why Szamveber claims they're Polish. Not referencing where the 1./SS-Pz.Jg.12 comes from.

MMM 11.50 Flanked the Le Mesnil-Robert farmstead from the right, then advancing fast entering St. Aignan from the east and fighting with shermans of C squadron Northamptonshire Yeomanry. Oddly all with out supporting infantry, until pulling out with the I/SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.25 back to Soignolles.

Who are MMM? I can't work that out at all.

You are missing this bit from Szamveber:

I was indeed. But not any longer.

"At 09:00 hours in the morning the 1.Kompanie reported to SS Panzerjäger Abteilung 12 that it had established positions in Cintheaux from the crossroads to Hill 103.
The Jagdpanzers were previously subordinated directly to the Begleitkompanie .......Their task originally was to advance via Estrees-le-Campagne and occupy the hill west of St. Sylvain.[20]
However, in the meantime the mission was changed. At 11:30 hours the 1.Kompanie was subordinated to .....,Kampfgruppe Prinz...and received the mission of advancing with the tanks {Pz IVs} to occupy St. Agnan de Camisnil and Garcelles-Secqueville. The main objective was to occupy Tilly-la-Campagne."

The first part (0900) tallies with the Meyer narrative. But, as pointed out, "capture ... the hill west of St. Sylvain" is a strange way to say get to the start point - unless they thought Pt.82 and/or Pt.103 had been taken. "Occupy" from Szamveber makes more sense.

The second part (1130) is troublesome in so many ways.
- KG Prinz was no longer, the attack force was KG WaldMuller.
- Whilst under the Begleitkompanie, they were already part of the KG Waldmuller.
- How does the mission change? The 0900 mission was to get to a point and occupy it. At 1130 they were there. The mission didn't change, they were now given a new one.
- Advancing with the Begleitkompanie on the right of II./SS-Pz.Regt.12 is advancing with the Pz.IV. Unless the report is specifically saying that they were now mixed in with the Pz.IV rather than on their right. But if so, then we have a problem with them engaging 2nd Armoured Regiment (2AR).
- The objective. Meyer's "I determined the forest southeast of Garcelles as the target of the attack..." is now contradicted so much so that it takes KG Waldmuller almost 90deg off in a different direction: NW rather than NE!!!

So he is using other secondary sources to decide on the identity of the 22 tanks they spotted to the east of them and which the engaged.

It does. No surprise there.

It would appear some of the movements of 1/SS-Pz.Jg.12 comes from Hurdelbrink recommendation for the Ritterkreuzes des Eisernen Kreuzes page 260 Szamveber

Oh dear! History based upon propaganda write ups!!!!

From the Allied side, multiple sources from primary documentation (war diaries and battle reports) and narratives by particpants, St. Aignan was NOT taken by the KG Waldmuller nor did they notice a pair of Jagdpanzer passing through their position and laying up just north of them for 8 hours or so. There is no evidence from the Allied side that KG Waldmuller managed to dislodge the British from their positions in and around Pt.122, Cramesnil and St.Aignan a single inch. What the did achieve was to blunt the 1st Polish Armoured Division's first attack and postpone their advance by 18-24 hours.

It seems more likely to me that Hurdelbrink and Roy got Robertmesnil and St.Aignan mixed up. They passed through Robertmesnil and laid up just north of there and no more. That would, in conjuction with the 'stutzpunkte' noted at 108556, have made a mess of 2AD.

[histan]

This is the translation of the recommendation.

"On 8 August 1944, at 1130 hours, the 1.( schwere [heavy] Kompanie of Panzerjäger Abteilung 12 (“ Hitlerjugend”), under Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink, was attached by the commander of Panzerjäger Abteilung 12 to Kampfgruppe “Prinz”, with the mission of advancing together with the tanks of the Kampfgruppe.
1st objective : St. Aignan.
2nd objective: Garcelles [-Secqueville].
The attack began at 11: 50 hours. The company advanced rapidly, enveloping the Le Mesnil-Robert farmstead from the right and thrust into the village of St. Aignan from the east. Six enemy tanks were knocked out in so doing. During this time enemy armour assembled 1 ½ kilometers east of St. Aignan. As soon as it was identified, by order of Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink, it was successfully taken under fire from the hill and from the hollow, whereby 18 enemy tanks were destroyed. The remaining tanks fled. Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink and another Panzerjäger thrust on past the village, whereby Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink knocked out five more tanks at the northern edge of the village. The positions attained were held until 2200 hours. Enemy anti-tank and infantry fire from the left flank then became so intense that the Kompanie was forced to withdraw, bringing all its wounded, along with Infanterie Bataillon “Waldmüller,” via Sylvain-le Bû to Soignolles. On this day Kompanie Hurdelbrink knocked out 29 tanks, of which the company commander, Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink, destroyed 11."

{Számvéber, Norbert. Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy: The Combat History of SS Panzer Regiment 12 and SS Panzerjäger Abteilung 12, Normandy 1944, based on their original war diaries (Kindle Locations 5688-5691). Helion and Company. Kindle Edition.}

There is also the map, which I can't copy. This shows the British forces deployed south of St.Agnan, just north of Robert Mesnil. This I think corresponds with where you have placed them.

The Panzer IVs seem to have come into contact with these but to have been unable to penetrate and reach St.Agnan. (According to the map). This I understand also corresponds with your interpretation.

So far so good.

1.Kompanie on the right goes round Robert Mesnil to the east and advances towards St.Agnan where it engages with some British tanks. After this, it engages with some other tanks that are spotted to the east of it. Then there are further engagements with the British. Under fire from the British on their left flank they then withdrew.

Ignoring the propaganda stuff does this make sense?
Does it tie in with the British accounts?

1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry claimed 5 Tigers, 4 Panthers, 6 Mk IVs and 5 SP Guns

Does the claim of 5 SP Guns tie in with one or more engagements with the Panzerjäger?

Regards

John

[MarkN]

This is the translation of the recommendation.

"On 8 August 1944, at 1130 hours, the 1.( schwere [heavy] Kompanie of Panzerjäger Abteilung 12 (“ Hitlerjugend”), under Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink, was attached by the commander of Panzerjäger Abteilung 12 to Kampfgruppe “Prinz”, with the mission of advancing together with the tanks of the Kampfgruppe.
1st objective : St. Aignan.
2nd objective: Garcelles [-Secqueville].
The attack began at 11: 50 hours. The company advanced rapidly, enveloping the Le Mesnil-Robert farmstead from the right and thrust into the village of St. Aignan from the east. Six enemy tanks were knocked out in so doing. During this time enemy armour assembled 1 ½ kilometers east of St. Aignan. As soon as it was identified, by order of Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink, it was successfully taken under fire from the hill and from the hollow, whereby 18 enemy tanks were destroyed. The remaining tanks fled. Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink and another Panzerjäger thrust on past the village, whereby Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink knocked out five more tanks at the northern edge of the village. The positions attained were held until 2200 hours. Enemy anti-tank and infantry fire from the left flank then became so intense that the Kompanie was forced to withdraw, bringing all its wounded, along with Infanterie Bataillon “Waldmüller,” via Sylvain-le Bû to Soignolles. On this day Kompanie Hurdelbrink knocked out 29 tanks, of which the company commander, Obersturmführer Hurdelbrink, destroyed 11."

{Számvéber, Norbert. Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy: The Combat History of SS Panzer Regiment 12 and SS Panzerjäger Abteilung 12, Normandy 1944, based on their original war diaries (Kindle Locations 5688-5691). Helion and Company. Kindle Edition.}

There is also the map, which I can't copy. This shows the British forces deployed south of St.Agnan, just north of Robert Mesnil. This I think corresponds with where you have placed them.

The Panzer IVs seem to have come into contact with these but to have been unable to penetrate and reach St.Agnan. (According to the map). This I understand also corresponds with your interpretation.

So far so good.

1.Kompanie on the right goes round Robert Mesnil to the east and advances towards St.Agnan where it engages with some British tanks. After this, it engages with some other tanks that are spotted to the east of it. Then there are further engagements with the British. Under fire from the British on their left flank they then withdrew.

Ignoring the propaganda stuff does this make sense?
Does it tie in with the British accounts?

1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry claimed 5 Tigers, 4 Panthers, 6 Mk IVs and 5 SP Guns

Does the claim of 5 SP Guns tie in with one or more engagements with the Panzerjäger?

Thanks for that histan.

Largely, yes it does agree. I have a problem with 2 things. First, what was the German objective: Tilly to the north or the woods to the northeast? Second, the left hook by 2 Panzerjager after Robertmesnil to take St.Aignan from the east makes no sense. It sounds like a damn good yarn.

My thoughts...
Phase I Op TOTALIZE

Red line - divisional boundary line

Green line - British and Canadian forces reach their objectives by 08/0600B.
A = 27CAR and RHLI, B = 10CAR and RRC, C = 144RAC and 7ASH, D = 1NY and 1BW

Yellow line - approximate German stopline.
MarkNote: I have yet to find any writer from either the Allied or the German side make an effort to place the German units in the area which were not part of 12.SS-Pz.Div. There were remnants of 89.Inf-Div as well as Luftwaffe Flak units doing much of the pantser busting with their 88mm.

Phase II Op Totalize

Red and green lines as previous.

Blue lines indicate planned (approximate) lines of advance for the Canadian 4th Armourd Division to the west and the Polish 1st Armoured Division to the east. Note the likely routes for 24th Lancers and 2nd Armoured Regiment.

Phase II Op Totalize

Just before Phase II commenced, the US performed a carpet bombing mission. At the same time as that started, the Germans launched KG Waldmuller against the British lines.

Red and green lines as previous but also showing the movement forward of 1NY to engage the oncoming Germans.

Blue lines show the initial movement of 24th Lancers and 2nd Armoured Regiment.

Yellow lines show the German assault. Tigers on the far left (east) heading for Pt.122, II./SS-Pz.Regt.12 and SS-Gren.Regt.26 middle heading straight for St.Aignan and the Begleitkompanie with 1./SS-Pz.Jag.Abt.12 on the right (west) heading northeastwards towards the final objective. MarkNote: It seems 1./Sturm.Pz.Abt.217 was under command II./SS-Pz.Regt.12 and, although not mentionned as being part of the attack, there is no reason to assume it just got left behind. This was a combined arms effort to take out an infantry and armour position. I suspect that SP guns claimed by 1NY could be SturmPanzer NOT PanzerJager.

Yellow oval represents the final objective as per Meyer.

Yellow square represents the 'stutzpunkt' that the Poles claim was the location of the main resistence to their advance. Whether that was a 'stuztpunkt' of Luftwaffe 88mm and/or 89.Inf-Div OR whether it was where 1./SS-Pz.Jag.Abt.12 ended up, I cannot say for sure.

1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry claimed 5 Tigers, 4 Panthers, 6 Mk IVs and 5 SP Guns

5 Tigers were left on the battlefield. Historical research gives them at least 3. Szamveber says KG Waldmuller were at Cintheaux with 5./ and 7/SS-Pz.Regt.12 and a total of 17 Pz.IV. However, he also intimates a further 2 Pz.IV and 5 Panthers were added just before the attack started. The 1NY claim is not unreasonable.

The Poles claim 1 Pz.IV, and 5 Pz.V destroyed or damaged. Allowing for misidentification, this is not unreasonable given that 24L and 2AR bumped both the 1./SS-Pz.Jag.Abt.12 and the right flank of II./SS-Pz.Regt.12. I doubt they got a Tiger as claimed by some.

Conclusions
Makes no sense for Hurdelbrink and Roy to hook left after Robertmesnil and go for St.Aignan. They have to go through the advancing 24th Lancers as well as the 1BW lines. And nobody saw anything.
The Poles took severe casualties and had to do a U-turn and start again the next day. Although the exact number is unknown, they clearly suffered a good few pantser losses. It seems the 2nd Armoured Regiment took the brunt of the fighting and needed 10th Mounted Rifles to come up to their aid.
1NY also suffered badly which is to be expected given what was charging at them.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Backing up the snip I posted from the regimental history of the 7 Argylls is the following entry from the war diary of 144 RAC for the night of 7 - 8 August 1944:

The three navigators' tanks all fell into craters, impossibly ditched.

They also lost two tanks (at least one to a bazooka) when crossing the railway at 068593. Another 144 RAC tank was hit just north of CRAMESNIL village at about 0400 hrs.

The war diary records the enemy counterattack on 8 August 1944, "during the afternoon", and that:

1 N Yeo took the brunt of this, though B Sqn had a share in the action and inflicted cas as well as suffering them; they claimed two TIGERS knocked out.

So, even before the "Tigers" rolled north out of CINTHEAUX, 144 RAC had already lost 6 tanks to "other causes"!

Regards

Tom

[Richard Anderson]

Backing up the snip I posted from the regimental history of the 7 Argylls is the following entry from the war diary of 144 RAC for the night of 7 - 8 August 1944:

The three navigators' tanks all fell into craters, impossibly ditched.

They also lost two tanks (at least one to a bazooka) when crossing the railway at 068593. Another 144 RAC tank was hit just north of CRAMESNIL village at about 0400 hrs.

The war diary records the enemy counterattack on 8 August 1944, "during the afternoon", and that:

1 N Yeo took the brunt of this, though B Sqn had a share in the action and inflicted cas as well as suffering them; they claimed two TIGERS knocked out.

So, even before the "Tigers" rolled north out of CINTHEAUX, 144 RAC had already lost 6 tanks to "other causes"!

Regards

Tom

Sorry Tom, but details like that are way overrated. It was Tigers dammit!

[MarkN]

Sorry Tom, but details like that are way overrated. It was Tigers dammit!

Stories not history. :roll:

Stories about Tigers seem to be popular.
Stories about the SS seem to be popular.
Stories about SS 'panzer aces' seem to be popular.
Stories about SS 'panzer aces' in a Tiger getting killed are publishers' heaven - or so it seems. :roll:

Now that I've read a bit about Op TOTALIZE, I can see that history has NOT been well remembered or covered - despite the volume of storybooks nibbling away at the fringes.

Op TOTALIZE is a classic example of British method and, in particular, rigidity of method. Yes, I know, it was a Canadian show. But the Canadians, by default, were employing British methods. I see Simonds has come in for some serious scrutiny and criticism. Some is clearly justified. But he was working within a framework and a collective mindset that proscribed very limited options. To me, his failures were largely the failures of the collective.

Meyer's charge at St.Aignan failed. But the story for me is how it didn't become a complete disaster and a rout that left the door wide open all the way to Falaise. For me, the reason was partly down to British rigidity and failure to see the opportunity presented. But equally we should not forget all the German forces present that the storytellers have conveniently forgotten. Whilst they have obsesssed with Tigers, Panthers and the SS, it was the Luftwaffe Flak Abteilungen and remnants of the shattered 89.Inf-Div (and elements of 272.Inf-Div) that held the line left and right of KG Waldmuller. Holding that line prevented KG Waldmuller from being encircled and destroyed. The Germans feared it was going to happen and were very grateful when the survivors managed to slip away that evening. But, they were never really threatened, were they?

PS.
Back to the original question. From Polish literature, I've found one reference to 24th Lancers losing 6 pantsers from a 1959 book and 14 from a 1958 book. The former seems to lean on information from an earlier 1947 book. I'm not sure we should take either as being authoratative.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Rich wrote:

Sorry Tom, but details like that are way overrated. It was Tigers dammit!

Oh, and one of the AVRE's of 80 Assault Sqn RE lost a track to a mine.

Regards

Tom

[Richard Anderson]

Rich wrote:

Sorry Tom, but details like that are way overrated. It was Tigers dammit!

Oh, and one of the AVRE's of 80 Assault Sqn RE lost a track to a mine.

Regards

Tom

I bet if you check Schneider you'll find it was a Tiger crewman who laid the mine.

[Orwell1984]

Not wanting to derail this interesting debate but came across this upcoming publication that may be of interest to some on the thread:



Due April 2019
https://www.amazon.ca/Arromanches-Elbe- ... RROMANCHES

Blurb:

It was on 14 June 1944, D+8, that the tanks of the 144th Regiment Royal armored Corps began to disembark on Gold Beach during the Normandy landings. Delayed in going ashore, the regiment’s tanks had been sorely missed by the infantry – and consequently the men of the 144th soon found themselves in action. It was the start of a long and bitter campaign that would take them across North West Europe into the heart of Germany.During that advance the regiment took part in a number of important actions. These included Operation _Pomegranate_ (July 1944), Operation _Totalize_, an innovative night attack which was one of the final steps to breaking out of the Caen bridgehead (7/8 August 1944), the siege and capture of Le Havre, the fighting in Holland during late 1944, the crossing of the Rhine (by which time the regiment had been equipped with amphibious Buffaloes and during which it carried the flag which accompanied the first British tanks to cross the Rhine after the end of the First World War), and the capture of Bremen just before the end of the war in Europe.The author began to investigate the regiment’s service through his late father-in-law, Captain R.W. Thorne, who had been officer in it during the war. As well as extensive interviews with him about the regiment and the campaign, this book draws on a variety of contemporary sources – not least of which are the archives of fellow officer Marcus Cunliffe.Cunliffe, who went on to become a distinguished British scholar and author who specialized in American Studies after the war (particularly military and cultural history), had kept a detailed and graphic diary and written a number of lively and informative accounts – all of which are now in the George Washington University in Washington DC. Unsurprisingly, Cunliffe’s work features heavily in this publication._Arromanches to the Elbe_ is a serious contribution to the history of the Second World War. As well as exploring all aspects of army life, such as training and what might be called the social history of an active service unit, this book will appeal to those interested in the campaign in Europe as a whole, the use of tanks and armored warfare in general, and, of course, the final battles to defeat Hitler’s Third Reich.

Be interesting to compare it with the research shared here when it is released

[Michael Kenny]

Be interesting to compare it with the research shared here when it is released

Our respite is temporary. I am sure there is a time-limit on his (forced) absence
and chaos will return.

[Richard Anderson]

Forced? Huh?

[histan]

FMS B-425 contains details of 89 Inf Div

Parts of this are posted below - not much detail but there is a map.

Regards

John