December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

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jacobstuart
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December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

#1

Post by jacobstuart » 09 Feb 2019, 06:04

Image
Photo from https://goo.gl/gYxQKn

DECEMBER 10, 1943.

Cold, frost. Ground fog, 300 m view. Roads frozen, easy to drive.

At 04:30, the gep.Gruppe and SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2 set out from Mezhyrichka (Межирічка), intend to capture Velyka Racha (Велика Рача). However, the Soviets launch three waves of attacks from south, southwest and west from battalion to regiment strength against the town of Mezhyrichka during the morning. The attacks are all repelled. Since 15:00 the Soviets attack again from Velyka Racha in regiment strength to Mezhyrichka, supported by strong artillery fires from the eastern shore of Teteriv River. By interrogating prisoners taken in the southeastern area of Malin, the Soviet 13th and 14th Gd.Tk.Brig of the IVth Gd.Tk.Korps were identified. [1]

The day for the reinforced SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1, securing the section on either side of the road from Gluchoff I (Глухів Перший) to Radomyschl with its positions east of Gluchoff I, pass without any special events except for harassing fire from Soviet artillery. In the meantime, however, the SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2 and gep.Gruppe held Mezhyrichka against in total five waves of enemy attacks, launched from Height 154.2 from Velyka Racha and Krassnoborka (Краснобірка) in regiment strength, partly led by the tanks. All attacks are repelled. [2]

Enemy loss for 12/9/1943: [3]

1 Gesch. 7.62 cm
2 Pak 4.7 cm
32 Pak 7.62 cm
16 Panzerbüchsen
43 M.G.
41 M.Pi.
117 Gewehre
368 Feindtote
30 Gefangene

DECEMBER 11, 1943.

During the night of December 10/11, the section of SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1 passes overall quietly except for harassing fire. Although the Soviet artillery carries out destructive firework in all calibers against SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2 positions of Mezhyrichka between 21:00 and 22:00, the grenadiers set themselves in the gutter northwest of Mezhyrichka, ready to attack Krassnoborka. [4]

At 12:00, after the bombardment in a coordination of the Leibstandarte and 1. Pz.Div. against Krassnoborka with all guns and smoke-mortars, the attack against Krassnoborka and Velyka Racha started.

At 12:50, the SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2 and gep.Gruppe broke through Krassnoborka from southwest.

At 13:00, hard fight takes place on Height 170.2, southeast of Krassnoborka. The Height is taken eventually and 18 Paks reportedly destroyed.

At 14:00, after a short pause, the attack against Velyka Racha started along the creek (supposed to penetrate the northern part of the village).

At 15:15, the Germans break in north edge of Velyka Racha, of which western edge was considerably fortified by Soviet Pak. The Soviet troops abandoned Velyka Racha, leaving their Pakfront behind. [5][6]

At 17:30, the Ia of Leibstandarte reports the enemy is completely surprised by the direction of attack. The booty is numerous – 21 s.Pak are logged so far. [7]

On the other side, the Soviet 38th Army acknowledges that by complete data for December 9, and incomplete data for December 10, the army troops destroy 70 enemy soldiers and officers, 2 AT-guns, 7 vehicles, 2 bunkers, 6 shelters, 2 105 mm howitzers, 2 machine guns… etc. [8]

Later on, the 38th Army reports that by complete date for December 10, and incomplete data for December 11, the army troops destroy 15 enemy soldiers and officers, 4 vehicles, 3 medium tanks destroyed in the district of Yosypivka (Йосиповка), 2 machine guns, 2 shelters… etc. [9]

In the meantime, the Soviet 60th Army is conducting counterattacks against left wing of the XXXXVIII. Pz.K. in the area between Meleni and Malin, over 35 km north of Radomyschl. [10][11]

***************************************

STATUS OF THE SS-PANZER REGIMENT 1 DURING…

12/1/1943: 176 tanks in total. [12]

12/20/1943: 172 tanks in total. [13]

12/27/1943: The first 8 new tanks are issued to regiment but would not arrive until 1/4/1944. [14]

***************************************

Jens Westemeier wrote:
“On December 10, 1943, Peiper’s style of command hit rock bottom, directly under the eyes of his patron and Leibstandarte commander Teddy Wisch. In the Radomyschl region, advancing in the general direction of the south, after crossing a ridge, Peiper’s armoured group faced a Soviet defensive position. Without taking care of the tactical situation and the strength of the defensive fire Peiper pushed his forces forward. Observing the ‘Turkey shooting’ of his own troops, the Division commander stopped the attack. Several hours later the headstrong Peiper attempted a frontal attack again. Moving forward, at once his troopers were under heavy fire. Burning and exploding armored vehicles and tanks lay crippled on the plain. Again, a furious division commander had to stop the attack and ordered Peiper back. Deeply disappointed about the qualities of his friend Peiper, he left the scene. Arriving at the divisional command post, Wisch issued an order on the correct tactical use of armed forces!”
See J. Westemeier (2007). Joachim Peiper: A Biography of Himmler’s SS Commander.



***************************************

NOTES:

[1] NARA T-314 R-1173 / 172. Tagesmeldung to Pz.A.O.K.4., announced 19:30, 12/10/1943.
[2] NARA T-314 R-1173 / 174. Ia-Tagesmeldung, issued 17:45, 12/10/1943.
[3] NARA T-314 R-1173 / 174. Ia-Tagesmeldung, issued 17:45, 12/10/1943.
[4] NARA T-314 R-1173 / 177. Morgenmeldung, recorded 04:00, 12/11/1943.
[5] NARA T-314 R-1173 / 190. Ia-Tagesmeldung, issued at 17:30, 12/11/1943.
[6] NARA T-314 R-1173 / 188. Tagesmeldung to Pz.A.O.K. 4., announced 19:00, 12/11/1943.
[7] NARA T-314 R-1173 / 190. Ia-Tagesmeldung, issued at 17:30, 12/11/1943.
[8] TsAMO, Fund 236, Inv 2673, Case 67, Sht 92. Military Report № 341. 20:30, 12/10/1943.
[9] TsAMO, Fund 236, Inv 2673, Case 67, Sht 93. Military Report № 342. 20:15, 12/11/1943.
[10] TsAMO, Fund 417, Inv 10564, Case 315, Sht 169. Military Report № 00718. 10:00, 12/10/1943.
[11] TsAMO, Fund 417, Inv 10564, Case 315, Sht 170. Military Report № 00718. 12/11/1943.
[12] NARA T-314 R-1173 / 174.
[13] NARA T-314 R-1173 / 209.
[14] BA-MA Freiburg i. Br. (Bestand RH 10). Records of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.

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Re: December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

#2

Post by OpanaPointer » 09 Feb 2019, 09:24

Bit of clarification. A "turkey shoot" was a competition with a turkey as the prize to the best shot. Today we see "Meat Shoots" in my area. (St. Louis, Missouri.)

I mention this because some people have become outraged over the term "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot", thinking the IJN pilots were being called "turkeys".
Come visit our sites:
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jacobstuart
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Re: December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

#3

Post by jacobstuart » 09 Feb 2019, 16:18

OpanaPointer wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 09:24
Bit of clarification. A "turkey shoot" was a competition with a turkey as the prize to the best shot. Today we see "Meat Shoots" in my area. (St. Louis, Missouri.)

I mention this because some people have become outraged over the term "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot", thinking the IJN pilots were being called "turkeys".
Thanks for your remark Pointer. Very resourceful websites btw.

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Re: December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

#4

Post by OpanaPointer » 09 Feb 2019, 17:50

Hyperwar is epic, but now that I've handed management over to the WW2.org collective it's just a huge part of a huger collection.The Resources page is there as well. (Still a bit under construction.)
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
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Re: December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

#5

Post by Cult Icon » 10 Feb 2019, 07:08

Do you have a copy of this and if you do is its Soviet coverage differ from the 2007 volume?:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/35067 ... bl_vppi_i1

I have a copy of the 2007 volume and must say that the contents match what Timo said here (the author had a "score" to settle with the LAH and produced a biased book). However, the later volume supposedly corrected the excesses.

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Re: December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

#6

Post by Art » 10 Feb 2019, 11:18

jacobstuart wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 06:04
On the other side, the Soviet 38th Army acknowledges that
Good, but it was in a different sector. You need 107 Rifle Corps/1 Guards Army.
On December 10, 1943, Peiper’s style of command hit rock bottom
Could it happen that the text describes the events of another day, say 9 December?

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Re: December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

#7

Post by Cult Icon » 14 Feb 2019, 17:13

pg. 92 of Joachim Peiper (sourced from Agte's book on Peiper) has Peiper getting a "silent dismissal" from command on Dec 22nd, 1943. He leaves the Eastern Front on Jan 20, 1944, during Operataion Waltraut/Watutin. (I didn't know this in the past, and falsely credited these tactical successes to Peiper). It seems that SS Major Kuhlmann was the one responsible. (Kampfgruppe Kuhlmann)

However, this "dismissal" is contradicted by later accounts of him leading the Panzer Regiment. What was he doing between 12/22/43 - 1/20/44 ? Was Peiper or Kuhlmann in command?

Leibstandarte III's coverage has a tonal shift right after Peiper takes command- the objectives are obtained but with heavy casualties with tank losses similar to those suffered by the Soviets (although these difficulties may be circumstantial and have more to do with the abilities of the Soviets).

pg.368 (LAH III): 11/8/43 - 12/20/1943- LAH claims 258 armor kills . Own status: 27 tanks and AG operational

What successes was the 1st Panzer Division reporting at this period? I know that their own armor losses closely tracked the LAH in Nov43-Dec43.

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Re: December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

#8

Post by Cult Icon » 14 Feb 2019, 18:23

Frey awarded the Oak Leaves for successes of the reinforced SS-PzGR1 (with the Panther battalion, Stug battalion, and other assets) shortly before the death of SS PR1's CO and his replacement with Peiper. Joachim Peiper (2007) talks of the controversy behind this appointment.

Wisch's Oak Leaves recommendation, 12/27/43, gives SS PR1 claiming 100 tanks captured or destroyed 11/21/43 - 12/24/43 under the command of Peiper.

Kuhlmann was later awarded the RK for his actions in Operation Waltraut/Watutin.

Krass was awarded the Oak Leaves for his leadership actions at Kursk and Zhitomir-berdichev (SS-PzGR2)

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Re: December 10, 1943. The "Turkey Shooting"?

#9

Post by jacobstuart » 04 May 2019, 11:57

Art wrote:
10 Feb 2019, 11:18
jacobstuart wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 06:04
On the other side, the Soviet 38th Army acknowledges that
Good, but it was in a different sector. You need 107 Rifle Corps/1 Guards Army.
On December 10, 1943, Peiper’s style of command hit rock bottom
Could it happen that the text describes the events of another day, say 9 December?
According to 107th Rifle Corps' combat reports, the corps went on offensive on its entire front at 11:30, 9th of December 1943, in the directions against Mircha (Мірча), Krasnobirka (Краснобірка), Hlukhiv Pershyi (Глухов 1-й), Verlok (Верлок), Zabolot' (Заболоть) and Hill 187.1, etc. Having met stubborn resistance and expected heavy losses and no success on the whole front. During the process of attack, two POWs of the 375th and 68th Inf. Div. were captured in the area of Глухов 1-й, and another five of the 2nd FJD were captured in the area of Гарборов. But no records of its subordinated PAK units versus enemy tanks. [1]

By 06:00, 10th of December 1943, two battalions of the 271st Rifle Division supported by twenty-four tanks captured the half of Mezhyrichka (Межирічка) [2] through a night attack from the south, but a counterattack pushed them back to Hill 154.2. [3] As a result of the battle, fourteen tanks and one rifle company were lost. The 328th Rifle Division, on the other hand, attacking on the directions Hlukhiv Pershyi (Глухов 1-й), Verlok (Верлок), etc, reported one hundred and eighty enemy soldiers eliminated, two enemy tanks knocked out. No available record of Corps' PAK units versus enemy tanks. [4]

***************************************
[1] Combat Report № 069. 18:00, 9th of December 1943. TsAMO, Fund 456, Inv 6850, Case 226, Sht 40-41.

[2] Guarded by Gep.Gruppe and SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2 who intended to take Velyka Racha from it. NARA T-314 R-1173 FRM-172. Tagesmeldung to Pz.A.O.K.4., announced 19:30, 12/10/1943.

[3] Where the Soviet attacks came from. NARA T-314 R-1173 FRM-174. Ia-Tagesmeldung, issued 17:45, 12/10/1943.

[4] Combat Report № 073. 18:00, 10th of December 1943. TsAMO, Fund 456, Inv 6850, Case 226, Sht 42-43.

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