Date of transfer 3., 23., 24. Pz.Div.s

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Melnyk
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Date of transfer 3., 23., 24. Pz.Div.s

#1

Post by Melnyk » 12 Feb 2019, 21:57

Hi

I am trying to establish the date of transfer of
3. Pz.Div., 23. Pz.Div. and 24. Pz.Div. from Heeresgruppe Nordukraine to army group centre in the summer of 1944 along with an appropriate source.

Best wishes
Mike Melnyk

Kelvin
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Re: Date of transfer 3., 23., 24. Pz.Div.s

#2

Post by Kelvin » 21 Feb 2019, 06:22

Hi, Mike, are you serious ? 23. and 24. Panzer-Divisions were stationed at Heeresgruppe Südukraine in summer of 1944. 23. Panzer division even took the lead in counter attack to stop Soviet advance in Oct 1944. 23. Panzer-Divsion never left the south in summer of 1944 and stayed here until the rest of war. 24. Panzer-Division were transfered to Heeresgruppe Mitte in January 1945. Only 3. Panzer division was correct in this sentence.


Melnyk
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Joined: 02 May 2002, 18:40
Location: England

Re: Date of transfer 3., 23., 24. Pz.Div.s

#3

Post by Melnyk » 21 Feb 2019, 08:11

Hi Kelvin

I very much appreciate your help as I am no authority on German armoured formations. I will double check but I have seen 2 sources which state “prior to the opening of the Soviet offensive against Army Group North Ukrainian on 13 July 1944, 3 panzer divisions were transferred from it to Army Group Centre”. One source names these divisions as 3pz, 23pz and 24pz.

Well I am almost certain that AGNU did transfer part of its mobile armoured reserve. I just need to know which units these were

Best wishes

Mike

Kelvin
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Re: Date of transfer 3., 23., 24. Pz.Div.s

#4

Post by Kelvin » 21 Feb 2019, 11:38

When Heeresgruppe Mitte was shattered, Heeresgruppe Nord Ukraine sent its two most powerful armored formations to reinfore HG Mitte : 4. and 5. Pz divisions had two complete Panzer abteilung with Panther and Pz IV. Other equipment like Wespe, Hummel and Grille were up to authorized level. Later, they also send 7. Panzer division who also received its Panther battalion later. So on the eve of Soviet offensive, what German left in this area is 1. 8. 16. 17.Panzer divisions . 5.SS Pz division Wiking and 20. Pz.Gren Division.

Melnyk
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Posts: 386
Joined: 02 May 2002, 18:40
Location: England

Re: Date of transfer 3., 23., 24. Pz.Div.s

#5

Post by Melnyk » 21 Feb 2019, 11:57

Hi Kelvin

1,8, 16 and 17 were all there for sure and it’s easy to find out abt their deployment. The sources I have seen do not mention 4 and 5, they simply state “prior to offensive on 13 July AGNU sent 3 pzr divs to reinforce AGC”.

This is a detail of a much bigger issue -or the strength of AGNU at that time which I would very much like to discuss with you. I am happy to send you full details of what I have so far if you think you could correct or add information

My email is [email protected]

By all means drop me a line if you think you can
assist

Mike

Kelvin
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Posts: 3117
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Re: Date of transfer 3., 23., 24. Pz.Div.s

#6

Post by Kelvin » 21 Feb 2019, 12:37

Hi, Mike, 3. Panzer division was sent from Heeresgruppe Sud Ukraine, not from Nord Uk. Because of disapperance of 28 division in area held by HG Mitte, German needed to send a lot of troop to fill in the holes caused by Bagration. 6. Panzer division, after refitting in Germany, also rushed to Poland, and later also come 19. and 25. Panzer divisions plus Fsch.Pz division from Italy.

Kelvin
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Posts: 3117
Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 15:49

Re: Date of transfer 3., 23., 24. Pz.Div.s

#7

Post by Kelvin » 22 Feb 2019, 06:20

Melnyk wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 11:57
Hi Kelvin

1,8, 16 and 17 were all there for sure and it’s easy to find out abt their deployment. The sources I have seen do not mention 4 and 5, they simply state “prior to offensive on 13 July AGNU sent 3 pzr divs to reinforce AGC”.

This is a detail of a much bigger issue -or the strength of AGNU at that time which I would very much like to discuss with you. I am happy to send you full details of what I have so far if you think you could correct or add information

My email is [email protected]

By all means drop me a line if you think you can
assist

Mike

Actuall, German armored reserve were located in Heeresgruppe Nord Uk. and Sud Uk in June 1944 :
HG N UK : 1. 4. 5. 7. 8. 16. 17. Pz div and 5. SS Wiking Pz Div and 20. Pz Gren Div

HG S Uk : 3. 13. 14. 23. 24. Pz Div, 3. SS Totenkopf Pz Div, Pz.Gren Div Grossdeutschland, 10. Pz Gren Div

Therefore another two army group had weak armoured reserves :

HG Mitte : 20. Pz div, 18. 25. Pz Gren Div and Pz.Gren Div Feldherrnhalle

HG Nord : 12. Pz division and 11. SS Frew. Pz.Gren Div. Nordland

When Heeresgruppe Mitte were shattered in later June, armored reserves of HG N UK were transfered t o HG Mitte : 4. 5. 7. Pz division to reinforce plus 12. Pz div from HG Nord.

Then When HG Nord Uk was attacked on July 13, armoured reserves of HG S Uk were transfered to HG N Uk , including 3. 14. 23. 24. Pz Div, Pz.Gren GD and 3. SS Pz Div Totenkopf Div.

So on 20th Aug 44, HG S Uk only had 13. Pz div and 10. PG division left and then led to collapse of HG S Uk in Kishinev, Moldova.

But 23. and 24. Pz divisions went back to south to stop further Soviet advance.

3. SS Pz div and Pz Gren Div GD and 3. Pz division went north further to under control of HG Mitte.

German reinforcement from Home : 6. 19. 25. Pz Div, 4. SS Polizei Pz.Gren Div and Fsch.Pz Div Hermann Goering to East.

That is situation from Bagration to end of 1944.

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