SdKfz 234 series

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yantaylor
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SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 26 Mar 2019 20:58

Hi everyone.

Did the German high command ever issue a K.St.N. for the new series of 234 armoured cars?
Did they envisage having a full battalion consisting of Sd. Kfz 234/1s, 234/2s, 234/3s, 234/4s and 250/1s, 250/6s, 250/7s, 250/8s, 250/9s.
If they did have a plan for such a new K.St.N. and managed to implement it, would they pass over their old light Sd.Kfz. 221s and 222s over to the Infantry divisions to equip one company in their Fusilier battalions?

Regards
Yan.

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Harro
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Re: Sdkfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 26 Mar 2019 22:16

https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopi ... 09#p162998

KStN 1109(gp)(fG) Stab und Stbs. Kp. / Pz. Aufkl. Abt. (gp)
Stab und Stbs. Kp. / Pz. Aufkl. Abt. (gp) (frei)1.4.44

Stab
4 Kettenkrad, 1 VW(82), 2 SPW(251/3), 1 SPW(251/8

Stabskompanie
Gruppe-Führer: 2 Kettenkrad, 2 VW(82), 1 PSW(234/1)

1.Zug(Nachrichten):
Zugtrupp: 1 VW(82), 1 SPW(251/3)
mittlerer Feldkabeltrupp(x2): 1 SPW(251/11)
mittlerer Funktrupp-80Mw(x4): 1 SPW(251/3)

2.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
1.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)
2.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)
3.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)

3.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
4.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)
5.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)
6.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/1)

schwere Kan Gruppe: 3 PSW(234/3)

Please note the Stabskompanie only had one Pkw, not two:

KStN 1109(gp)(fG) Stab und Stbs. Kp. / Pz. Aufkl. Abt. (gp) (frei)1.11.44

Stab
4 Kettenkrad, 1 VW(82), 2 SPW(251/3), 1 SPW(251/8

Stabskompanie
Gruppe-Führer: 2 Kettenkrad, 1 VW(82), 1 PSW(234/1)

1.Zug(Nachrichten):
Zugtrupp: 1 VW(82), 1 SPW(251/3)
mittlerer Feldkabeltrupp(x2): 1 SPW(251/11)
mittlerer Funktrupp-80Mw(x4): 1 SPW(251/3)

2.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
1.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
2.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
3.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
4.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)

3.Zug(s. Panzerspäh):
5.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
6.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)
7.Trupp: 1 PSW(234/1), 1 PSW(234/3)

yantaylor
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Re: Sdkfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 27 Mar 2019 11:35

Thanks Harro!

Would there be plans to include the LUCH light tank in the recce battalion?

Each battalion could have;

1/ KP LUCH
1/ KP sdkfz 234s
1/ KP 250/9s
1/ KP armoured infantry [250/1s]
1 / Heavy KP

I know that the chances of this happening are 0, but seeing that the German army seemed to use their recce battalion as a fighting unit at times, this would give it some punch.

Yan.

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pintere
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Re: Sdkfz 234 series

Post by pintere » 27 Mar 2019 15:40

yantaylor wrote:
27 Mar 2019 11:35
Thanks Harro!

Would there be plans to include the LUCH light tank in the recce battalion?

Each battalion could have;

1/ KP LUCH
1/ KP sdkfz 234s
1/ KP 250/9s
1/ KP armoured infantry [250/1s]
1 / Heavy KP

I know that the chances of this happening are 0, but seeing that the German army seemed to use their recce battalion as a fighting unit at times, this would give it some punch.

Yan.
Thing is that near the end of the war these battalions were being used frequently used as economy of force units, expected to take and especially hold territory when needed. Because of this it makes a lot more sense to have at least two companies of mech infantry, which is in fact how they were organized.

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Re: Sdkfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 27 Mar 2019 20:37

yantaylor wrote:
27 Mar 2019 11:35
Thanks Harro!

Would there be plans to include the LUCH light tank in the recce battalion?

Each battalion could have;

1/ KP LUCH
1/ KP sdkfz 234s
1/ KP 250/9s
1/ KP armoured infantry [250/1s]
1 / Heavy KP

I know that the chances of this happening are 0, but seeing that the German army seemed to use their recce battalion as a fighting unit at times, this would give it some punch.

Yan.
Yan, if a unit was issued with the LUCHS then it did not have the SdKfz 250/9. A "normal" PAA in 1944 had five companies;
Staff Company with the wheeled armoured cars, whether Pumas, other 234's or older four and eight wheelers
1st Company with the SdKfz250/9 or Luchs
3rd and 4th "Infantry" Companies in SdKfz 250
5th Heavy Company with SdKfz 251/9, pioniere and Pak platoons.
Alan

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 28 Mar 2019 21:44

I have an old book from the 1970s in which the author states that the PaK platoons in the heavy company, could be armed with JPZ IVs, this is late in the war of course.

Yan.

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 29 Mar 2019 10:37

Yan, oddly enough I bought that very book yesterday in a charity shop in Warminster ! Bruce Quarrie's "Tank Battles in Miniature 3, Nerth West European Campaign 1944-45". He certainly does say that and that the "12 x 75mm SP Guns" in the armoured panzer grenadier battalion were StuG III ! I was thinking about that and realised that it was a case of a little knowledge being a bad thing. On the Kriegsgliederung charts the sign for the 75mm Stummel in the various companies was the same "upwards pointing arrow" as designated a StuG by its inclusion on top of the panzer rhomboid. So the fact that a Kriegsgliederung for a Pz Gren Bn (gp) would in fact have thesse litle arrows with a total of 12 (2 per company and 6 in the Heavy Company) could well lead someone to think they had twelve StuG !
That said there is no excuse for thinking the Recce Bn had Jagdpanzer IV's ! :lol: The same book tells us that the Armoured Car Companies in Normandy had the SdKfz 234/4 so really he wasn't having a very good day when he wrote it.
Alan

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 29 Mar 2019 14:52

Alan, I am impressed you knew the book from what I said, it is littered with discrepancies, on page 21 he says that each panzer grenadier battalion has 12cm mortars mounted on half-tracks and page 23, each SS artillery battalion has 12 x 17cm K18 Guns.

I must admit though, I have a fondness for them old books and would really like to get my hands on Tank Battles in Miniature 2 and 4 to add to 1 and 3 in my collection. I have quite a few of Quarries books and I am certain he ment well back in olds when he wrote them as he had nowhere near the data we have now with the WWW, imagine him posting on this site.
I started collecting old WW2 rule books in the late 1990s, the oldest one I have is by Donald Featherstone titled 'wargame campaingns' I had his first book called simply 'wargames' but it vanished!

Do you know if the recce battalion ever used the range of military cars, le.gl.Pkw, m.E.Pkw and s.E.Pkw?

Heading down your way in may, me and the missus are visting Bath, Newbury, Salisbury and Stonehenge.

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Harro
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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 29 Mar 2019 15:11

yantaylor wrote:
29 Mar 2019 14:52
Do you know if the recce battalion ever used the range of military cars, le.gl.Pkw, m.E.Pkw and s.E.Pkw?
All of those throughout the war. I can only speak for the Aufkl.ABt. LAH and detailing all its subunits which used them would be too much but for example Kfz. 11 as Zugführerfahrzeug in many platoons, Kfz. 15 and 17 of all sorts were used in the Abteilungsstab, in the Nachrichtenzug, as command vehicles in the KradschützenKompanien, etc., Kfz. 69 and Kfz. 70 towed PaK and Werfer in the schwere Kompanie and moved the schwere MG Züge in the VW-Kompanien. The list is endless.

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 29 Mar 2019 15:26

Hi Harro, were they usually kept at HQ level?
I never come across these vehicles when I search for data, I see plenty of Kublewagons but not these.

Yan.

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 29 Mar 2019 15:32

I edited my reply ;)

Here's a nice example: April 1941, the Nachrichtenzug of the Aufkl. Abt. LAH at Kleisoura Pass. From left to right we see an Sd.Kfz. 222 followed by a Mercedes-Benz 320 WK with the tactical symbol of the Panzerspähkompanie on its port fender. Then the vehicles from the Nachrichtenzug: a Kfz. 15 followed by two Kfz. 17 radio vans. They are overtaken by another Kfz. 15
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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 29 Mar 2019 15:38

Paris, the 29th of July 1942: a schwere MG crew from 2. (VW) Kompanie, Aufkl. ABt. LAH, in their brand new Sd.Kfz. 70 ‘Horch’ during preparations for the parade.
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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 29 Mar 2019 15:39

They look rather old compared to the Kublewagon or even the US Dodge WC range, but they do look very sturdy though.

I wondered if the were ever used in the recce role since they could carry more then the Kuble.

Yan.

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 29 Mar 2019 15:42

June 1943, SS-Untersturmführer Adolf Katzenbeißer and SS-Untersturmführer Manfred Coblenz in front of the command vehicle of the 1. (VW) Kompanie, a Kfz. 15.
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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 29 Mar 2019 15:58

They were very sturdy - developed in many many versions they were the workhorses of the German motorised units. Not intended for recce roles the were mainly found as command, support and towing vehicles but anything was possible.

Funny you mentioned the Dodge: battalion commander Gustav Knittel used one which can be seen in photos taken in the Ardennes in December 1944. Veterans assumed that it was in le Mesnil-Tôve that Knittel found an American Dodge (WC56, 57 or 58) staff car which served as his command vehicle during the rest of the campaign at the invasion front and later in the Ardennes. Its original owner was possibly the cannon company of the 39th Infantry Regiment, 9th US Infantry Division which was overrun in this village on the 7th of August 1944.

Another example from the Aufkl. Abt. LAH: late 1940/early 1941, a Kfz. 69 Protzen-Kraftwagen towing a 37mm anti-tank gun. The tactical symbol identifies it as a vehicle from the Pak-Zug of the schwere Kompanie. The two Zündapp KS600 motorcycle combinations belonged to the Zugtrupp. In the background from left to right: Meyer’s aide Weiser, company commander Knittel and battalion commander Meyer plus three unidentified men.
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