SdKfz 234 series

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yantaylor
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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 29 Mar 2019 17:19

Great photos and info Horro, thanks!
Did the PKW series replace the aging Horch 830R?

Yan.

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 30 Mar 2019 10:27

Harro, what is it about that tactical sign which makes you think Aufkl. Abt. ? The rectangle is just an ordinary motorised infantry sign, no diagonal line and no "A" in it t indicate Aufkl. Abt. at all.
Alan

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 30 Mar 2019 10:32

yantaylor wrote:
29 Mar 2019 14:52
Alan, I am impressed you knew the book from what I said, it is littered with discrepancies, on page 21 he says that each panzer grenadier battalion has 12cm mortars mounted on half-tracks and page 23, each SS artillery battalion has 12 x 17cm K18 Guns.

I must admit though, I have a fondness for them old books and would really like to get my hands on Tank Battles in Miniature 2 and 4 to add to 1 and 3 in my collection. I have quite a few of Quarries books and I am certain he ment well back in olds when he wrote them as he had nowhere near the data we have now with the WWW, imagine him posting on this site.
I started collecting old WW2 rule books in the late 1990s, the oldest one I have is by Donald Featherstone titled 'wargame campaingns' I had his first book called simply 'wargames' but it vanished!

Do you know if the recce battalion ever used the range of military cars, le.gl.Pkw, m.E.Pkw and s.E.Pkw?

Heading down your way in may, me and the missus are visting Bath, Newbury, Salisbury and Stonehenge.
Yan, Sadly I am so old I got those books when they were published then got rid of them and by pure coincidence I found the Russian and NWE books on Thursday morning. In the seventies many writers made the same mistakes, another is that the StuPa IV was developed to be used in the Panzergrenadier Infantry Gun Companies !
Another is that the GD's Recce Bn had Hetzers in 1944/45 when they really had the Aufkl.Pz 38(t), at least they got the basic chassis right I suppose.
As Harro has already shown, yes the Recce used the normal range of vehicles both as "combat", eg towing and troop carrying, roles and in the normal support roles.
Alan

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 30 Mar 2019 12:37

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
30 Mar 2019 10:27
Harro, what is it about that tactical sign which makes you think Aufkl. Abt. ? The rectangle is just an ordinary motorised infantry sign, no diagonal line and no "A" in it t indicate Aufkl. Abt. at all.
The little pennant-like thingy in the red circle identifies the recce batln (plus the fact that Meyer, Knittel and Weiser are in the pic). The diagonal line and "A" - again with pennant - were introduced after the battle for Kharkov (see "Schnubbel" and other Schwimmers photographed in July 1943)
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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 30 Mar 2019 15:16

Sorry Harro but you are wrong about the diagonal line and A being introduced so late in the war, they were in use from the beginning of the war. Nor does the little pennant and circle indicate a recce unit both were used on many different types of unit although I will grant you that it is unusual for the circle to be above the pennant.

Image
Alan

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 30 Mar 2019 16:01

Before the switch to the "box with A and diagonal line and pennant" during spring of 1943 the two motorcycle-companies in the Aufkl.Abt. LAH used the "circular symbol with X and pennant". When they switched to Schwimmers in July 1942 they kept the symbol because they were still considered Kradschützen despite the news vehicles. After Kharkov they were officially denoted as a VW-Kompanie hence the switvh to a new tactical symbol: the "box with diagonal and pennant".

The above info is specific for those two motorcycle-companies: the other companies in the battalion - including the heavy companie already used the box-symbols, all with the specific recce pennant.

Before this topic gets more confusing: I do hope you're aware of the distinct difference between the recce pennant and the various other pennants in tactical symbols?
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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 04 Jul 2019 20:46

In that link kindly posted earlier by Horro, I can only detect Sd. Kfz 234/1s and Sd. Kfz 234/3s.
Where the Sd. Kfz 234/2s and Sd. Kfz 234/4s kept at a higher level?

Also where are the PKWs example Le.gl.Pkw Kfz 1, m.E.Pkw Kfz 15 and s.E.Pkw Kfz-69, are these also at a higher level as I can only see Kübelwagens in the company.

Yan

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 05 Jul 2019 09:46

Yan, That link refers only to 2 PD which had only PUMAS other PDs ahd different combinations of cars. The SdKfz 234/2 and 234/4 were issued to the same sorts of armoured car companies as the 234/1 and 234/3, just at different dates. The Pumas were actually the first of the 234 series to be issued with the 234/1 and 234/3 coming into service from late June 44 while the 234/4 first reached units in January 1945.
Talking only of the companies which had 234 series cars they would have had 13 x 234/1 and 6 x 234/3 , or all Puma, with the 234/4 replacing the 234/3. That of course is in a perfect world which it wasn't.
There used to be an excellent issue list on line on Panzer Archiv and a less well done one on Feldgrau but the forums are now defunct, I do have a hard copy of the Panzer Archiv one if you are interested in a particular unit.
Alan

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 05 Jul 2019 11:14

Basically production of the 234/2 stopped in favour of the 234/1 and /3 after only a handful of units were (partly) outfitted with the /2. The above mentioned SS-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 1 LSSAH is a good example of how little the actual situation resembled what was planned on paper: instead of having the usual leichte and schwere Panzerspähwagen, the idea was first to equip its 4. (Pz.Späh) Kompanie with 25 schwere Panzerspähwagen of the new Sdkfz. 234/2 type. However, the production run was just ending now and the /1 and /3 were not yet leaving the production lines. Only 16 234/2 were delivered and the missing nine vehicles were to be Sdkfz 250/5 instead. But instead the armoured car company was dissolved and two platoons each equipped with eight 234/2 were to be formed which were assigned to the Stabskompanie. It is unclear how many of these 16 were actually available when the battalion left for the invasion front.

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by BartekPL » 05 Jul 2019 15:29

Alan, could you please check in this issue list units, such as:
1) Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung Brandenburg,
2) Fallschirm-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 1 Hermann Göring,
3) Fallschirm-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 2 Hermann Göring,
4) Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 20,

Regards
Bartłomiej

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 05 Jul 2019 16:47

Shame about that web site Alan.

I don’t have a particular unit in mind, just a KStN for companies, platoons or even battalions for 1939 to 1945. Did they mix the vehicles together like the light 260/261, 223, 222s and 221s being supported by the heavier 231, 232, 233 and 263 for example? Or did they keep them apart.
Harro makes a good point about the late war set up, and as you said ‘’That of course is in a perfect world which it wasn't’’ they couldn’t manage to keep up production of all models.

Have you both noticed that Only around 100 Puma were produced, about enough for four companies.
I recall seeing a list for which units had these AFVs, so I dug around and here it is;

Panzer Lehr Division - 25 vehicles
2nd Panzer Division - 25 vehicles
1st SS Panzer Division - 16 vehicles
12th SS Panzer Division - 16 vehicles
20th Panzer Division - 16 vehicles
7th Panzer Division - 6 vehicles
13th Panzer Division - number unknown

Now I get that to 104 and that is without the unknown numbers given to the 13th Pz.

Thanks to you both for the help so far!
Yan

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 05 Jul 2019 17:07

Yan, I don't know where you got those figures from but they are wrong, HJ definitely never had any Pumas, the units that I have for the Puma are;

Panzer Lehr 25
2 PD 25
20 PD 16
LAH 16

Other divisions may have received a few whether new or rebuilds which accounts for 7 and 13 PD and a pair which were issued to Brandenburg i January 1945. I believe that the reason that they were issued in groups of 16 or 25 is because the divisions involved were using different KStN for their companies. It is noted on the issue lists for example when the 16th vehicle was issued to LAH .."Unit full".
The armoured cars were always in the Stabskompanie in 1944, I don't know where Harro gets the idea that they were intended for LAH's 4.Kp, this was usually either a Panzergrenadier or Schwere Kompanie, depending upon the number of companies in the Abteilung. All sorts of cars were to be found in the various Panzer Divisions with a mix of old four and eight wheelers as you guessed or of the new eight wheelers normally to a total of 16 cars.
Alan

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 05 Jul 2019 17:23

yantaylor wrote:
05 Jul 2019 16:47
I don’t have a particular unit in mind, just a KStN for companies, platoons or even battalions for 1939 to 1945. Did they mix the vehicles together like the light 260/261, 223, 222s and 221s being supported by the heavier 231, 232, 233 and 263 for example? Or did they keep them apart.
Drifting away from the 234/2 but the vehicles you mention were commonly organised in the heavy armoured car platoons (231, 232) and light armoured car platoons (221, 222, 223) of the armoured car companies which were used for scouting and to provide fire support, etc., whereas the others (260, 261, 262, 263) belonged to the signals platoons and signals battalions and were often assigned to recce platoons but were also commonly assigned to company commanders for communication with the battalion or regimental commanders or to battalion and regimental commanders for communication with the divisional staff, etc., etc. Would be a book in its own to describe it in full but the short story is that anything was possible.

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 05 Jul 2019 17:36

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
05 Jul 2019 17:07
I don't know where Harro gets the idea that they were intended for LAH's 4.Kp, this was usually either a Panzergrenadier or Schwere Kompanie, depending upon the number of companies in the Abteilung. All sorts of cars were to be found in the various Panzer Divisions with a mix of old four and eight wheelers as you guessed or of the new eight wheelers normally to a total of 16 cars.
Communications with Hans Weber, info from the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg and information obtained from veterans of the Panzerspähkompanie of the SS-PzAA1, the Nachrichtenabteilung LAH and the Nachrichtenzug of the SS-PzAA1. Perhaps I should have mentioned the planned renumbering to 1. (Pz.Späh) Kompanie before it was dissolved but this topic is already steering into way to many small details.
This is an overview which I posted in my Knittel Facebook group as an addition to my book...

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Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 05 Jul 2019 18:07

BartekPL wrote:
05 Jul 2019 15:29
Alan, could you please check in this issue list units, such as:
1) Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung Brandenburg,
2) Fallschirm-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 1 Hermann Göring,
3) Fallschirm-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 2 Hermann Göring,
4) Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 20,

Regards
Bartłomiej
Here is what I've found from the Panzer Archiv list.
1. Oct 44, 3 x 234/3; Dec 44, 4 x 234/1; Jan 45, 2 x 234/2 and 7 x 234/4. It is noted that with 16 cars the unit was "full" and that they wrote the report on use of the 234/4.

2. Oct 44, 1 x 232, 13 x 234/1 and 3 x 234/3; Feb 45, 3 x 234/4.

3. No entries for this unit, did it actually exist ?

4. Sept 44, 3 x 234/3 and it is noted that the unit still had its 16 x Puma.
Alan

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