SdKfz 234 series

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Alanmccoubrey
Financial supporter
Posts: 2897
Joined: 19 Sep 2008 13:44

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 05 Jul 2019 18:08

Harro, what I take from all that is that you just made a simple error and didn't mean the 4.KP at all.
Alan

yantaylor
Member
Posts: 653
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 14:53
Location: Cheshire

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 05 Jul 2019 20:48

Thats wiki for you Alan, a place for fake news!

User avatar
Harro
Member
Posts: 3029
Joined: 19 May 2005 18:10
Location: The Netherlands

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 05 Jul 2019 21:33

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
05 Jul 2019 18:08
Harro, what I take from all that is that you just made a simple error and didn't mean the 4.KP at all.
That would mean the 234/2's were assigned to the SS-PzAA1 after May 30, 1944. Do you have such info?

Alanmccoubrey
Financial supporter
Posts: 2897
Joined: 19 Sep 2008 13:44

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Jul 2019 09:06

Harro wrote:
05 Jul 2019 21:33
Alanmccoubrey wrote:
05 Jul 2019 18:08
Harro, what I take from all that is that you just made a simple error and didn't mean the 4.KP at all.
That would mean the 234/2's were assigned to the SS-PzAA1 after May 30, 1944. Do you have such info?

Sadly the issue lists only start in June 1944, however the great book "Fire Brigades" does have the 16 x Puma being issued to LAH in May 1944.

For those who might be bothered to know the other Divisions are noted as receiving their Pumas as follows;
Panzer Lehr, 3 in Jan , 4 in Feb and 18 in March.
2 PD, 4 in March and 21 in April.
20 PD 16 in May.
Alan

BartekPL
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 21 Jan 2017 08:53
Location: Poland

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by BartekPL » 06 Jul 2019 10:24

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
05 Jul 2019 18:07
3. No entries for this unit, did it actually exist ?
Yes, Fallschirm-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 2 Hermann Göring existed. Where could I find how many Sd Kfz 234s and others were available as for 15/16.04.1945 in Aufklärungs-Abteilungs which I mentioned? I found documents which only mention the numbers of tanks, SPGs and tank destroyers in divisions, but hardly anything on Aufklärungs-Abteilungs.

yantaylor
Member
Posts: 653
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 14:53
Location: Cheshire

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 06 Jul 2019 16:07

Nafziger, has plenty of info in the books I have by him, but when it comes to armoured cars, you have to really assume things, for example; he states a lot that ‘light armoured car company circa Feb 1941, has;

10 x 20mm KwKs
25 x LMGs

So, by that I would assume that the company has 10 x Sd. Kfz 222s and that 10 of the LMGs would also be on these vehicles, but that leaves another 15 LMGs to play with, but didn’t these companies have 16 armoured cars?
If so then I would guess that six of these LMGs would be mounted on Sd. Kfz 221s and the other nine mounted on Kübelwagens and other light support vehicles.

Yan


Alanmccoubrey
Financial supporter
Posts: 2897
Joined: 19 Sep 2008 13:44

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Jul 2019 20:54

yantaylor wrote:
06 Jul 2019 16:07
Nafziger, has plenty of info in the books I have by him, but when it comes to armoured cars, you have to really assume things, for example; he states a lot that ‘light armoured car company circa Feb 1941, has;

10 x 20mm KwKs
25 x LMGs

So, by that I would assume that the company has 10 x Sd. Kfz 222s and that 10 of the LMGs would also be on these vehicles, but that leaves another 15 LMGs to play with, but didn’t these companies have 16 armoured cars?
If so then I would guess that six of these LMGs would be mounted on Sd. Kfz 221s and the other nine mounted on Kübelwagens and other light support vehicles.

Yan
Those companies had a mix of cannon armed and radio cars so in your example you'd have those 10 x 222 and a mix of 221 and 223 each with its single MG.
Alan

Alanmccoubrey
Financial supporter
Posts: 2897
Joined: 19 Sep 2008 13:44

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Jul 2019 21:18

BartekPL wrote:
06 Jul 2019 10:24
Alanmccoubrey wrote:
05 Jul 2019 18:07
3. No entries for this unit, did it actually exist ?
Yes, Fallschirm-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 2 Hermann Göring existed. Where could I find how many Sd Kfz 234s and others were available as for 15/16.04.1945 in Aufklärungs-Abteilungs which I mentioned? I found documents which only mention the numbers of tanks, SPGs and tank destroyers in divisions, but hardly anything on Aufklärungs-Abteilungs.
I can't help you April 45 strengths, I'm afraid, the issue lists only cover the issue dates.

As for HG2 it looks like you are going to be disappointed to discover that it was formed in October 1944 from III./FschPz Gren Regt 3 with four companies. Given that it doesn't appear in the issue lists it would appear that it never received any armoured cars. "Tip of the Spear" notes that "it theoretically had a Model M44 organisation. is doubtful that it ever had but a fraction of its authorised personnel and equipment." It also notes that it was never authorised a PzSpKp c, that is the company equipped with the SdKfz 250/9.
Alan

BartekPL
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 21 Jan 2017 08:53
Location: Poland

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by BartekPL » 07 Jul 2019 16:53

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
06 Jul 2019 21:18
As for HG2 it looks like you are going to be disappointed to discover that it was formed in October 1944 from III./FschPz Gren Regt 3 with four companies. Given that it doesn't appear in the issue lists it would appear that it never received any armoured cars. "Tip of the Spear" notes that "it theoretically had a Model M44 organisation. is doubtful that it ever had but a fraction of its authorised personnel and equipment." It also notes that it was never authorised a PzSpKp c, that is the company equipped with the SdKfz 250/9.
I know how the unit was made, but still was curious whether they received anything specific, besides the Sd Kfz 250/9s. Thanks anyway.

Regards
Bartłomiej

yantaylor
Member
Posts: 653
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 14:53
Location: Cheshire

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 07 Jul 2019 20:36

Thanks chaps!

Yan

zafirkalvin
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: 17 Jul 2019 14:48
Location: berlin

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by zafirkalvin » 26 Jul 2019 18:37

yantaylor wrote:
26 Mar 2019 20:58
Hi everyone.

Did the German high command ever issue a K.St.N. for the new series of 234 armoured cars?
Did they envisage having a full battalion Onlinesbi sudoku aadhar card consisting of Sd. Kfz 234/1s, 234/2s, 234/3s, 234/4s and 250/1s, 250/6s, 250/7s, 250/8s, 250/9s.
If they did have a plan for such a new K.St.N. and managed to implement it, would they pass over their old light Sd.Kfz. 221s and 222s over to the Infantry divisions to equip one company in their Fusilier battalions?

Regards
Yan.


I was thinking about that and realised that it was a case of a little knowledge being a bad thing. On the Kriegsgliederung charts the sign for the 75mm Stummel in the various companies was the same "upwards pointing arrow" as designated a StuG by its inclusion on top of the panzer rhomboid.

yantaylor
Member
Posts: 653
Joined: 20 Mar 2011 14:53
Location: Cheshire

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by yantaylor » 30 Dec 2019 20:53

Hi everyone, I was reading through the book 'Encyclopaedia of German Tanks' and came acxross the 234 series, I am sure it mentions about the 234/4 being grouped in a heavy platoon of six vehicles.
As far as I can see it in a armoured recce battalion, we have a platoon of Puma, a platoon of 234/1s with 234/3, a platoon of 250/9 with 250/8 and a Infantry company mounted in 250/1s.
Would the six 234/4s be attached to the HQ?

Yan

User avatar
Harro
Member
Posts: 3029
Joined: 19 May 2005 18:10
Location: The Netherlands

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 31 Dec 2019 10:07

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
06 Jul 2019 09:06
Harro wrote:
05 Jul 2019 21:33
Alanmccoubrey wrote:
05 Jul 2019 18:08
Harro, what I take from all that is that you just made a simple error and didn't mean the 4.KP at all.
That would mean the 234/2's were assigned to the SS-PzAA1 after May 30, 1944. Do you have such info?
Sadly the issue lists only start in June 1944, however the great book "Fire Brigades" does have the 16 x Puma being issued to LAH in May 1944.
Well there you go: in May 1944 the 4. Kompanie was still the Panzerspähkompanie and as such the 234/2's were initially assigned to the 4. Kompanie. By the time the Pumas actually arrived in early June, the reorganizations had taken place and the vehicles became part of the Stabskompanie. SS-Oberscharführer Fuhrmann returned to the battalion at the beginning of June and recalled after the war that some of these Pumas had already arrived in Turnhout before the company was dissolved. See the attached excerpt from his letter to me dated the 1st of July 2005: “I reported to my unit, the Panzerspäh-Kompanie and saw upon arrival that Pumas were present. The platoons were led by the Standartenoberjunkers Rentsch, Richter and Herzog.”. Fuhrmann also confirmed the formation of a Vorausabteilung which was send to the HJ-Division in Normandy ahead of the rest of the Leibstandarte. This Vorausabteilung included a platoon of Pumas and a platoon of Schwimmwagen from SS-PzAA1 LSSAH and is what caused the misconception that the HJ also had been assigned Pumas.

A quick overview: from its formation in August 1940, the Panzerspähkompanie had been the 3. Kompanie. During the reorganization/expansion of the battalion in March 1942, a le.SPW Kompanie was formed which became the 3. Kp and the Pz.Späh.Kp was renumbered as 4. Kp and kept this number until the May 30, 1944, reorganization.
61587281_10219577146965093_2324755206211895296_o.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Harro on 31 Dec 2019 10:57, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
Harro
Member
Posts: 3029
Joined: 19 May 2005 18:10
Location: The Netherlands

Re: SdKfz 234 series

Post by Harro » 31 Dec 2019 10:40

As a sidenote: an interesting G2 report dated the 18th of December 1944 in which a captured straggler from the Stabskompanie, SS-PzAA1, told his interrogators that his unit had twelve "Pumas" and apparently he had to explain to them what a Puma is. His interrogators clearly did not fully understand exactly what he meant - lost in translation it became an "APC" - but there's no doubt that the name Puma came from their German prisoner.
In 2001, the late Alfons Sproß also told Mike and me that they used to refer to "2cm-Puma" for the Sd.Kfz. 234/1, "5cm-Puma" for the 234/2 and "Stummel" for the 234/3. Sproß was a Puma-driver in December 1944. Early December 1944, the battalion fielded three Sd.Kfz. 234/1, three SdKfz. 234/2 and ten Sd.Kfz. 234/3. These were used to equip two platoons each with eight vehicles. However, on the 15th of December Wawrzinek formed a ‘Vorauskompanie’ which included a Panzerspähzug equipped with 234's. This Vorauskompanie was assigned to Peiper on the 16th which means Knittel had only one platoon of 8-wheelers left. 234/1 and /3 from the platoon that remained with Knittel were photographed on December 17, 1944, at Honsfeld and Born.

It goes against common believe that the name "Puma" was made up after the war. All in all what Sproß and the G-2 journal show is that in 1944, "Puma" was commonly used for the 234/1 and 234/2 within the SS-PzAA1. Use of this name outside this specific unit remains unproven.

Ignore the "revision date" at the bottom of the document - it is clearly a typo from a clerk who still had to adjust to the new year.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”