How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
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Harro
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Harro » 05 Sep 2019 19:54

Leprechaun wrote:
05 Sep 2019 17:53
Cult Icon wrote:
05 Sep 2019 15:17
I am most curious of whether or not German soldiers (army, ss, luftwaffe, or other) experienced profound feelings of joy in and after combat and what these feelings entailed.
Why German ? Why not any nationality ? Why do you have a fascination with the SS ?
Jack
Because this is the Axis History Forum?

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Harro
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Harro » 05 Sep 2019 19:56

"It is not the ideological training, which was held from time to time, it is not the racial laws, it is not the establishment of concentration camps - of their existence we knew, of course - it is also not the racial arrogance and intolerance, the cause we were committed to with such unscrupulous dedication. It is very simple things that touch us and with which we can certainly be manipulated by. The love for our country and its people, the belief to be in the field for a just cause - how else would it be possible, to bear everything that was demanded?"
- Kurt Landrichter (1. Komp./Aufkl.Abt. LAH)

"Under the Sigrunen [we] belonged to Himmler’s ‘Ordensgemeinschaft’ (religious order) which had been the decisive force behind the racial madness and the imperialistic ‘Germano-mania’ of the Third Reich. Unfortunately we were more than Hausser’s ‘Soldaten wie anderen auch’"
- Rolf Diercks (Das Reich)

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Leprechaun » 05 Sep 2019 22:44

Harro wrote:
05 Sep 2019 19:54
Because this is the Axis History Forum?
How does that answer the question ? I know it's an Axis Forum

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Ivan Ž.
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Ivan Ž. » 05 Sep 2019 23:19

Timo, thank you for the interesting quotes.

Leprechaun, your posts are both off-topic and unnecessary provocative. Please (re-)read the forum rules. It seems that the thread you may have been looking for is Why the Waffen-SS.

Cheers,
Ivan

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Sep 2019 12:43

Hi Harro,

When I posted, "I would suggest that their war crimes were largely a function of their leaders' ideological motivations", you replied "Nice spin".

Please clarify what you mean and why?

W-SS soldiers tended to do what their officers told them. In officer training, political indoctrination was allocated the highest number of hours, equalled only by tactical training. It is difficult not to draw a connection between the ideology of Nazism as taught them and the W-SS's greater propensity to commit war crimes than, say, the German Army, which served in the same places under the same conditions.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Harro » 06 Sep 2019 15:14

Another nice try Sid, but I refuse to let you drag this topic into a "people who contact Waffen-SS veterans have questionable motives" discussion as it inevitably turn in the same endless old exchange of arguments seen in numerous other topics.

Enjoy the rest of your day

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Peter89 » 06 Sep 2019 18:23

Harro wrote:
06 Sep 2019 15:14
Another nice try Sid, but I refuse to let you drag this topic into a "people who contact Waffen-SS veterans have questionable motives" discussion as it inevitably turn in the same endless old exchange of arguments seen in numerous other topics.

Enjoy the rest of your day
Dear Harro,

I agree with Sid on this.

Waffen-SS composed of 3 elements: 1. core units, like a personal, privileged, ideologically influenced army; 2. volunteers, the international fighters against judeo-bolshevism; 3. late war conscripts.

Roughly 95% of the history of the Waffen-SS is associated with the 1. and 2. groups. They were fighting the same battles as the Wehrmacht units, their officiers and soldiers received about the same amount of training as their Wehrmacht counterparts (except the ideological topics), but their soldiers were different in mind. So if you show a particular interest towards groups 1. and 2., you probably have a special interest in their mindset.

Have a nice weekend,
Péter

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Harro
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Harro » 07 Sep 2019 08:02

Yup, and we already have a "why the waffen-SS" topic - currently at 209 pages.

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 07 Sep 2019 08:18

Peter89 wrote:
06 Sep 2019 18:23


They were fighting the same battles as the Wehrmacht units,
So the Waffen-SS fought at Stalingrad?
:)

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Peter89 » 07 Sep 2019 10:18

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
07 Sep 2019 08:18
Peter89 wrote:
06 Sep 2019 18:23


They were fighting the same battles as the Wehrmacht units,
So the Waffen-SS fought at Stalingrad?
:)
Eg. they fought at Demyansk.

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Sep 2019 10:33

Hi Harro,

There is only any point in having a discussion if we are all being honest and accurate.

In your last post you said that you refused to let me drag this topic into a "people who contact Waffen-SS veterans have questionable motives" discussion. The quotation marks are yours.

I have checked this thread and nowhere has anyone posted that, and certainly not me.

Could you please enlighten us as to who posted this and where?

I suspect you are referring to this that I posted earlier, "The only reason to seek out W-SS veterans rather than Army veterans is if one is particularly interested in their ideological motivations (if any) for the Reich-born W-SS men and the nationalist motivations of the Freiwillige W-SS "volunteers" of other nationalities."

If so, these are not questionable motives. They are good reasons to look at the W-SS rather than the German Army, because they are what distinguishes the two. Militarily, W-SS divisions were otherwise pretty much clones of their Army equivalents and their combat experiences pretty much identical.

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 07 Sep 2019 10:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Sep 2019 10:44

Hi Pascal,

You are right that no Waffen-SS divisions served at Stalingrad. The so-called "classic" W-SS divisions were busy rebuilding in relative comfort in France at the time and entirely missed what was arguably the turning point of the war in Europe.

But this doesn't negate the wider point that their combat experience was pretty much identical to that of their Army equivalents. Stalingrad was not the only encirclement battle and W-SS divisions were caught up in these.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Harro
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Harro » 07 Sep 2019 12:02

Had it been a quote I would have used the quote function.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
07 Sep 2019 10:33
If so, these are not questionable motives. They are good reasons to look at the W-SS rather than the German Army, because they are what distinguishes the two. Militarily, W-SS divisions were otherwise pretty much clones of their Army equivalents and their combat experiences pretty much identical.
Unless an admin renames this topic "Why the Waffen-SS? 2.0" its over and out

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by Pascal. Kullmann. » 07 Sep 2019 12:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:
07 Sep 2019 10:44
Hi Pascal,

You are right that no Waffen-SS divisions served at Stalingrad. The so-called "classic" W-SS divisions were busy rebuilding in relative comfort in France at the time and entirely missed what was arguably the turning point of the war in Europe.

But this doesn't negate the wider point that their combat experience was pretty much identical to that of their Army equivalents. Stalingrad was not the only encirclement battle and W-SS divisions were caught up in these.

Cheers,

Sid.
Completely agree! But then Peter should have put it differently...

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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?

Post by eindhoven » 07 Sep 2019 16:10

Pascal. Kullmann. wrote:
07 Sep 2019 08:18
Peter89 wrote:
06 Sep 2019 18:23


They were fighting the same battles as the Wehrmacht units,
So the Waffen-SS fought at Stalingrad?
:)
No, but they did in fact fight alongside my Opa who was in 10.Panzer Division, particularly Das Reich in 1941. Crossing the Dnepr, Brest-Litovsk, Mogilev, Gorki-Shamovo-Chrislavirchi-Pochinok, Battle of Yelnya, Smolensk, Vinnitsa, Operation Typhoon, etc. It was the A.A. of Das Reich that rescued 10. Panzer's Artillery Battalion after they were ambushed by Soviet forces after crossing the Dnepr. 10.Panzer Division was among the leading divisions that encircled the soviet fronts at Bryansk-Vzyama. Afterward the Division pushed toward the Borodino fortified defenses and worked together in close cooperation with SS-Das Reich.

We can only hope the thread gets back on track.

I will say, having sat with them, met them, and been approached after the death of my Opa and Onkel, I found them respectful and gentlemanly. When they drink they have a good time just like anyone else. War crimes were discussed with derision, nothing in detail. The officers deportment seemed different than that of the lower ranks who when drinking could be a little more boisterous. There was a mutual respect among them when around my Opa and likewise him to them.

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