Because this is the Axis History Forum?Leprechaun wrote: ↑05 Sep 2019, 18:53Why German ? Why not any nationality ? Why do you have a fascination with the SS ?
Jack
How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
"It is not the ideological training, which was held from time to time, it is not the racial laws, it is not the establishment of concentration camps - of their existence we knew, of course - it is also not the racial arrogance and intolerance, the cause we were committed to with such unscrupulous dedication. It is very simple things that touch us and with which we can certainly be manipulated by. The love for our country and its people, the belief to be in the field for a just cause - how else would it be possible, to bear everything that was demanded?"
- Kurt Landrichter (1. Komp./Aufkl.Abt. LAH)
"Under the Sigrunen [we] belonged to Himmler’s ‘Ordensgemeinschaft’ (religious order) which had been the decisive force behind the racial madness and the imperialistic ‘Germano-mania’ of the Third Reich. Unfortunately we were more than Hausser’s ‘Soldaten wie anderen auch’"
- Rolf Diercks (Das Reich)
- Kurt Landrichter (1. Komp./Aufkl.Abt. LAH)
"Under the Sigrunen [we] belonged to Himmler’s ‘Ordensgemeinschaft’ (religious order) which had been the decisive force behind the racial madness and the imperialistic ‘Germano-mania’ of the Third Reich. Unfortunately we were more than Hausser’s ‘Soldaten wie anderen auch’"
- Rolf Diercks (Das Reich)
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Timo, thank you for the interesting quotes.
Leprechaun, your posts are both off-topic and unnecessary provocative. Please (re-)read the forum rules. It seems that the thread you may have been looking for is Why the Waffen-SS.
Cheers,
Ivan
Leprechaun, your posts are both off-topic and unnecessary provocative. Please (re-)read the forum rules. It seems that the thread you may have been looking for is Why the Waffen-SS.
Cheers,
Ivan
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Hi Harro,
When I posted, "I would suggest that their war crimes were largely a function of their leaders' ideological motivations", you replied "Nice spin".
Please clarify what you mean and why?
W-SS soldiers tended to do what their officers told them. In officer training, political indoctrination was allocated the highest number of hours, equalled only by tactical training. It is difficult not to draw a connection between the ideology of Nazism as taught them and the W-SS's greater propensity to commit war crimes than, say, the German Army, which served in the same places under the same conditions.
Cheers,
Sid.
When I posted, "I would suggest that their war crimes were largely a function of their leaders' ideological motivations", you replied "Nice spin".
Please clarify what you mean and why?
W-SS soldiers tended to do what their officers told them. In officer training, political indoctrination was allocated the highest number of hours, equalled only by tactical training. It is difficult not to draw a connection between the ideology of Nazism as taught them and the W-SS's greater propensity to commit war crimes than, say, the German Army, which served in the same places under the same conditions.
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Another nice try Sid, but I refuse to let you drag this topic into a "people who contact Waffen-SS veterans have questionable motives" discussion as it inevitably turn in the same endless old exchange of arguments seen in numerous other topics.
Enjoy the rest of your day
Enjoy the rest of your day
Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Dear Harro,Harro wrote: ↑06 Sep 2019, 16:14Another nice try Sid, but I refuse to let you drag this topic into a "people who contact Waffen-SS veterans have questionable motives" discussion as it inevitably turn in the same endless old exchange of arguments seen in numerous other topics.
Enjoy the rest of your day
I agree with Sid on this.
Waffen-SS composed of 3 elements: 1. core units, like a personal, privileged, ideologically influenced army; 2. volunteers, the international fighters against judeo-bolshevism; 3. late war conscripts.
Roughly 95% of the history of the Waffen-SS is associated with the 1. and 2. groups. They were fighting the same battles as the Wehrmacht units, their officiers and soldiers received about the same amount of training as their Wehrmacht counterparts (except the ideological topics), but their soldiers were different in mind. So if you show a particular interest towards groups 1. and 2., you probably have a special interest in their mindset.
Have a nice weekend,
Péter
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."
Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Yup, and we already have a "why the waffen-SS" topic - currently at 209 pages.
- Westphalia1812
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
So the Waffen-SS fought at Stalingrad?
I love myself way more than I love you
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Eg. they fought at Demyansk.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Hi Harro,
There is only any point in having a discussion if we are all being honest and accurate.
In your last post you said that you refused to let me drag this topic into a "people who contact Waffen-SS veterans have questionable motives" discussion. The quotation marks are yours.
I have checked this thread and nowhere has anyone posted that, and certainly not me.
Could you please enlighten us as to who posted this and where?
I suspect you are referring to this that I posted earlier, "The only reason to seek out W-SS veterans rather than Army veterans is if one is particularly interested in their ideological motivations (if any) for the Reich-born W-SS men and the nationalist motivations of the Freiwillige W-SS "volunteers" of other nationalities."
If so, these are not questionable motives. They are good reasons to look at the W-SS rather than the German Army, because they are what distinguishes the two. Militarily, W-SS divisions were otherwise pretty much clones of their Army equivalents and their combat experiences pretty much identical.
Cheers,
Sid.
There is only any point in having a discussion if we are all being honest and accurate.
In your last post you said that you refused to let me drag this topic into a "people who contact Waffen-SS veterans have questionable motives" discussion. The quotation marks are yours.
I have checked this thread and nowhere has anyone posted that, and certainly not me.
Could you please enlighten us as to who posted this and where?
I suspect you are referring to this that I posted earlier, "The only reason to seek out W-SS veterans rather than Army veterans is if one is particularly interested in their ideological motivations (if any) for the Reich-born W-SS men and the nationalist motivations of the Freiwillige W-SS "volunteers" of other nationalities."
If so, these are not questionable motives. They are good reasons to look at the W-SS rather than the German Army, because they are what distinguishes the two. Militarily, W-SS divisions were otherwise pretty much clones of their Army equivalents and their combat experiences pretty much identical.
Cheers,
Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 07 Sep 2019, 11:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Hi Pascal,
You are right that no Waffen-SS divisions served at Stalingrad. The so-called "classic" W-SS divisions were busy rebuilding in relative comfort in France at the time and entirely missed what was arguably the turning point of the war in Europe.
But this doesn't negate the wider point that their combat experience was pretty much identical to that of their Army equivalents. Stalingrad was not the only encirclement battle and W-SS divisions were caught up in these.
Cheers,
Sid.
You are right that no Waffen-SS divisions served at Stalingrad. The so-called "classic" W-SS divisions were busy rebuilding in relative comfort in France at the time and entirely missed what was arguably the turning point of the war in Europe.
But this doesn't negate the wider point that their combat experience was pretty much identical to that of their Army equivalents. Stalingrad was not the only encirclement battle and W-SS divisions were caught up in these.
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Had it been a quote I would have used the quote function.
Unless an admin renames this topic "Why the Waffen-SS? 2.0" its over and outSid Guttridge wrote: ↑07 Sep 2019, 11:33If so, these are not questionable motives. They are good reasons to look at the W-SS rather than the German Army, because they are what distinguishes the two. Militarily, W-SS divisions were otherwise pretty much clones of their Army equivalents and their combat experiences pretty much identical.
- Westphalia1812
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Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
Completely agree! But then Peter should have put it differently...Sid Guttridge wrote: ↑07 Sep 2019, 11:44Hi Pascal,
You are right that no Waffen-SS divisions served at Stalingrad. The so-called "classic" W-SS divisions were busy rebuilding in relative comfort in France at the time and entirely missed what was arguably the turning point of the war in Europe.
But this doesn't negate the wider point that their combat experience was pretty much identical to that of their Army equivalents. Stalingrad was not the only encirclement battle and W-SS divisions were caught up in these.
Cheers,
Sid.
I love myself way more than I love you
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
And I think about killing myself
So, best believe, I thought about killing you today
Re: How do you see Waffen-SS veterans?
No, but they did in fact fight alongside my Opa who was in 10.Panzer Division, particularly Das Reich in 1941. Crossing the Dnepr, Brest-Litovsk, Mogilev, Gorki-Shamovo-Chrislavirchi-Pochinok, Battle of Yelnya, Smolensk, Vinnitsa, Operation Typhoon, etc. It was the A.A. of Das Reich that rescued 10. Panzer's Artillery Battalion after they were ambushed by Soviet forces after crossing the Dnepr. 10.Panzer Division was among the leading divisions that encircled the soviet fronts at Bryansk-Vzyama. Afterward the Division pushed toward the Borodino fortified defenses and worked together in close cooperation with SS-Das Reich.
We can only hope the thread gets back on track.
I will say, having sat with them, met them, and been approached after the death of my Opa and Onkel, I found them respectful and gentlemanly. When they drink they have a good time just like anyone else. War crimes were discussed with derision, nothing in detail. The officers deportment seemed different than that of the lower ranks who when drinking could be a little more boisterous. There was a mutual respect among them when around my Opa and likewise him to them.