Waffen-SS Hungarian recruitment

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Khor
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Posts: 8
Joined: 15 Nov 2014, 08:19

Waffen-SS Hungarian recruitment

#1

Post by Khor » 16 Oct 2019, 08:39

Greetings to everyone!
I would like to ask, if any of you, from what Hungarian counties did the SS recruit to which units.
For example the 22. SS-Division had Volksdeutsche in its ranks, but from which counties, or cities?
Is there a good source for something like this?

Sid Guttridge
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Waffen SS Hungarian recruitment

#2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Oct 2019, 12:34

Hi Khor,

Until early 1943 the W-SS could only accept Volksdeutsche volunteers from its allies. However, these were disappointing in number, so in early 1943 Hungary, Slovakia and Romania were pressured into allowing the W-SS to conscript Volksdeutsche directly from these countries. As a result, it is probably reasonable to assume that W-SS members from these countries came fairly evenly from everywhere that there were Volksdeutsche communities.

The early war VD volunteers seem to have largely gone into 7th Mountain and 8th Cavalry Divisions. The later VD conscripts were more widely spread through W-SS divisions newly created from 1943. They were not enthusiastic and were regarded by the W-SS hierarchy as having had their Germaness adulterated by their long sojourn amongst Hungarians, Slavs and Romanians, so few became officers. (An exception was Artur Phleps, commander of 7th Mountain Division, who was a former officer in the Romanian Mountain Corps. He was born in Sibiu and had previously been in the Austro-Hungarian Army.).

Cheers,

Sid.


Khor
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Posts: 8
Joined: 15 Nov 2014, 08:19

Re: Waffen SS Hungarian recruitment

#3

Post by Khor » 16 Oct 2019, 17:49

Thank you. I'm currently searching for people from my home county Békés, Hungary. I think they were recruited to the 22nd. The interesting thing is, that in '44-'45 they fought in their home territory. I would like to search for more information, but the available sources do not write more on the manpower of the unit.

Peter89
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Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: Waffen SS Hungarian recruitment

#4

Post by Peter89 » 16 Oct 2019, 21:10

Hello Khor!

You have to distinguish between the periods before and after 19.03.1944. Prior to that, ethnic Germans were offered the chance to join the W-SS instead of the army of their country of origin. In the (somewhat biased) book of Bethlen Béla: Észak-Erdély kormánybiztosa voltam the the author claims that all of the ethnic German population of the recently annexed Northern-Transsylvania joined the W-SS.

(Interestingly, I have never read a single article about the ethnic Romanians who fought in the Hungarian Royal Army in WW2.)

After the occupation of Hungary, the W-SS began to merge the remnants of the Hungarian forces with the German formations, and recruit more and more men. The 22nd W-SS division was built up partially from Hungarian conscripts, transfers from HRA, etc.

I can recommend you to write to the best contemporary Hungarian historian Ungváry Krisztián, who has a formidable knowledge about the military history of 1944-1945 and the SS in particular.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Sid Guttridge
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Waffen-SS Hungarian recruitment

#5

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Oct 2019, 10:50

Hi Peter89,

A good point about the Romanians in the Hungarian Army. There were certainly a couple of hundred thousand Romanian men eligible for conscription. Presumably almost all came from the areas of Northern Transilvania re-annexed by Hungary with Axis collusion in 1940.

Hungary was oppressive of them. There is a Romanian book (Horthyist-Fascist Terror in Northwestern Romania, September 1940 - October 1944) that records this. From memory, I think it claims that the Hungarians were responsible for the deaths of about 1,000 Transilvanian Romanians. Tens of thousands of Romanians fled Hungarian rule after 1940. Furthermore, there were dozens of border clashes between Hungary and Romania on the Northern Transilvania border during the war.

One suspects, given their fathers' unreliable performance for Austria-Hungary in WWI that the Northern Transilvanian Romanians were themselves suspect by Hungary in WWII. It is unlikely, therefore, that many were given much responsibility or officer rank, and probably none who did not speak Hungarian.

Perhaps they were disproportionally used in the pioneer corps on labouring tasks, as were Hungary's Jewish conscripts?

Alternatively, they might have been dispersed amongst all Hungarian divisions, where any dissidence could be controlled. It would certainly have been unwise to let them all concentrate in the three(?) divisions raised in Northern Transilvania after 1940, as they were more or less as numerous as the local Hungarians.

Horthyist-Fascist Terror in Northwestern Romania, September 1940 - October 1944 is available cheap on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=Horthyist- ... nb_sb_noss). Be advised that (1) it is a 1986 Communist era book and (2) is purely from a nationalist Romanian point of view. This does not necessarily make it inaccurate, but it does give it a partial slant. On the plus side, for me, it is in English!

Clearly this book wouldn't be the end point for research into Romanians in the Hungarian Army in WWII, but it might make a useful starting point.

Cheers,

Sid.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: Waffen-SS Hungarian recruitment

#6

Post by Peter89 » 18 Oct 2019, 21:20

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Oct 2019, 10:50
Hi Peter89,

A good point about the Romanians in the Hungarian Army. There were certainly a couple of hundred thousand Romanian men eligible for conscription. Presumably almost all came from the areas of Northern Transilvania re-annexed by Hungary with Axis collusion in 1940.

Hungary was oppressive of them. There is a Romanian book (Horthyist-Fascist Terror in Northwestern Romania, September 1940 - October 1944) that records this. From memory, I think it claims that the Hungarians were responsible for the deaths of about 1,000 Transilvanian Romanians. Tens of thousands of Romanians fled Hungarian rule after 1940. Furthermore, there were dozens of border clashes between Hungary and Romania on the Northern Transilvania border during the war.

One suspects, given their fathers' unreliable performance for Austria-Hungary in WWI that the Northern Transilvanian Romanians were themselves suspect by Hungary in WWII. It is unlikely, therefore, that many were given much responsibility or officer rank, and probably none who did not speak Hungarian.

Perhaps they were disproportionally used in the pioneer corps on labouring tasks, as were Hungary's Jewish conscripts?

Alternatively, they might have been dispersed amongst all Hungarian divisions, where any dissidence could be controlled. It would certainly have been unwise to let them all concentrate in the three(?) divisions raised in Northern Transilvania after 1940, as they were more or less as numerous as the local Hungarians.

Horthyist-Fascist Terror in Northwestern Romania, September 1940 - October 1944 is available cheap on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=Horthyist- ... nb_sb_noss). Be advised that (1) it is a 1986 Communist era book and (2) is purely from a nationalist Romanian point of view. This does not necessarily make it inaccurate, but it does give it a partial slant. On the plus side, for me, it is in English!

Clearly this book wouldn't be the end point for research into Romanians in the Hungarian Army in WWII, but it might make a useful starting point.

Cheers,

Sid.
Thanks Sid.

Fyi the Northern Transsylvania provided only one corps (the ninth) to the Royal Hungarian Army.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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