Tanks in Panzergrenadier-Divisions?

[The Norwegian Guy]

I have heard of people talking about tanks being in panzergrenadier-divisions, if so which ones? Excluding PnzGrd.-Div. G.D.

[Cult Icon]

Waffen SS PzG divisions before their redesignation to panzer.

motorized infantry divisions circa 42-43 had tank battalions

[Alanmccoubrey]

Your question is too general, nearly every Panzergrenadier Division had tanks at one time or another between 1943 and 1945.

[Gary Kennedy]

As there aren't too many Motorised/Panzer Grenadier Divisions we can put a little bit more detail together for the Army ones at least (though I haven't attempted either 15 or 90 Divs).

3 Mot Inf Div - 103 Pz Bn; looks to have had Panzers proper during 1942 at least, then refitted with Stugs by late 1943?
10 Mot Inf Div - Stugs only
14 Mot Inf Div - no (reverted to an Infantry Division in 1943)
16 Mot Inf Div - 116 Pz Bn (Div became basis for 116 Panzer Div)
18 Mot Inf Div - Stugs only
20 Mot Inf Div - Stugs only
25 Mot Inf Div - Stugs only
29 Mot Inf Div - 129 Pz Bn; looks to have had Panzers proper during 1942 at least, then refitted with Stugs by late 1943?
36 Mot Inf Div - no (reverted to an Infantry Division in 1943)
60 Mot Inf Div - 160 Pz Bn (60 Div was destroyed in early 1943 and a new Div was organised shortly after as Feldherrnhalle, with Stugs)

Difficult to ascertain when those few Divs that did have a Panzer Bn proper shifted over to Stugs. I think the introduction of Stug Bns to those Mot Divs that had no tank or assault gun element previously came around June/July 1943, when they started to reorganise as Panzer Grenadier Divs.

If you have a look through the various Divisional histories available via the Axis History Factbook in the link at the top of each forum page, you can piece things together.

Gary

[The Norwegian Guy]

Yeah, i am aware of SS ones, although post June 1944, i think this only counts for 11. SS-PnzGrd.-Div. "Nordland" with SS-Pnz-Abt. "HvS". I can't recall, 17. and 18. (SS) had any "Tanks".

I am kinda looking for units post January 1944

[Richard Anderson]

That would pretty much be 15. Panzergrenadier-Division. When Pz-Abtl-115 was raised from remaining elements of 15. Panzer-Division as Division-Szilian it was equipped with Panzer III and IV and retained its Panzer IV (and one or two Pz-III IIRC) at least through December 1944. Many of the original Panzer-Abteilungen raised for the Infanterie-Division (mot) in 1942 were in divisions lost in Stalingrad or Africa, so when they were reformed in spring 1943 the decision was to equip them with StuG, which made more sense than tanks.

So for example, Pz-Abtl 5. was organized from rear elements of Panzer-Regiment 5. lost in Afrika, equipped with StuG and assigned to 25. Panzergreandier-Division.
Ditto Pz-Abtl 7. assigned to 10. Panzergreandier-Division.
Ditto Pz-Abtl 8. assigned to 20. Panzergrenadier-Division.
Pz-Abtl 103. was raised with Panzer-III in February 1942 for the 3. Infanterie-Division (mot), lost in Stalingrad and re-raised equipped with StuG in France in June 1943 when the division was re-raised as 3. Panzergreandier-Division.
Pz-Abtl 116 was raised in February 1942 with Panzer-III for 16. Infanterie-Division (mot), reorganized in June 1943 with StuG when the division was rebuilt as 16. Panzergrenadier-Division, and was the core of the new 16. Panzer-Regiment of 116. Panzer-Division when the division was re-built again in spring 1944.
Pz-Abtl 118 was raised in September 1943 with StuG for 18. Panzergreandier-Division.
Pz-Abtl 129. was raised in March 1942 with Panzer III for 29. Infanterie-Division (mot), lost in Stalingrad and re-raised with StuG when the division was re-raised as 29. Panzergrenadier-Division.
Pz-Abtl 160 was raised in June 1942 with Panzer III for 60. Infanterie-Division (mpt), lost in Stalingrad and re-raised with StuG when the division was re-raised as 60. Panzergrenadier-Division and then got renamed as Pz-Abtl-Feldherrnhalle.
Pz-Abtl 190 was raised in June 1942 with Panzer III for 90. le.Afrika-Division, lost in Africa and was re-raised with StuG in June 1943 as part of Division-Sardinien, which was then re-named 90. Panzergrenadier-Division.

[The Norwegian Guy]

But why did they then have a Panzer-Abteilung and a Panzerjäger-Abteilung, both with Stugs in. I believe the PnzJgr-Abt. only had a platoon but.

Confusing hehe

[Richard Anderson]

But why did they then have a Panzer-Abteilung and a Panzerjäger-Abteilung, both with Stugs in. I believe the PnzJgr-Abt. only had a platoon but.

Confusing hehe

I don't believe they ever actually did? The PzJgr-Abtl in the Panzergrenadier-Division typically consisted of two towed 7.5cm Pak batteries, not StuG. Certainly the 3., 29., 60., and 90. Panzergrenadier-Division as constituted in 1943 did not have StuG in the PzJg-Abtl. The PzJg-Abtl of the Panzer and Panzergrenadier divisions were supposed to be equipped with PzJg-IV in the reorganization after fall 1943, but few ever received them that I can think of.

[Alanmccoubrey]

The 90th Panzergrenadier Division when reformed after Africa had Panzer Abteilung 190 with 1 x Pz III(short 5cm), 20 Panzer III(75) and 37 Panzer IV(long), this was the strength reported o 20th August 1943. By January 1944 they still had 2 PzIII(long) 14 Panzer III(75) and 26 Pz IV(Long). At the same time 15 Panzergrenadier Division had 22 Panzer IV(long), one Command Tank and 21 StuG III. These figures from Panzer Truppen 2. In August 1944 when it had been moved to the Western Front 15 Panzergrenadier Div had one BefPz III and 36 Pz IV(long).

[Richard Anderson]

The 90th Panzergrenadier Division when reformed after Africa had Panzer Abteilung 190 with 1 x Pz III(short 5cm), 20 Panzer III(75) and 37 Panzer IV(long), this was the strength reported o 20th August 1943. By January 1944 they still had 2 PzIII(long) 14 Panzer III(75) and 26 Pz IV(Long). At the same time 15 Panzergrenadier Division had 22 Panzer IV(long), one Command Tank and 21 StuG III. These figures from Panzer Truppen 2. In August 1944 when it had been moved to the Western Front 15 Panzergrenadier Div had one BefPz III and 36 Pz IV(long).

Indeed, I forgot to check them. They also had seven StuG (six operational, one in long-term repair), but the date record I have for that entry is 31 August. Yes, they did have tanks through early January 1944, but between 11 and 18 January PzAbtl 190. transferred all its tanks (14 Pz III, 26 Pz IV, 5 Befehlspanzer) to other units in Italy (probably HG), while its four remaning StuG went to 3. Panzergrenadier-Division, and began refitting. However, between 28 January and 8 February 1944 the division received three Pz III. Then by 11 February two Befehlspanzer appear from unknown sources, but seem to really have been two more Pz III, because that is what is recorded on 14 February, while on 18 February it increase to seven Pz III and eight Pz IV, then another Pz IV is recorded on 22 February.

Then on 25 February the refitted PzAbtl 190. reports it has two Befehlspanzer and 40 StuG with another about to arrive, but the battalion has not rejoined the division yet. By 29 February the battalion rejoins with two Befehlspanzer and 41 StuG, but the division also still has six Pz III and seven Pz IV. It is not until 3 March that the tanks disappear permanently. It appears they were actually an attachment from HG that was then transferred to 1 FJD.

[Kingfish]

29 Mot Inf Div - 129 Pz Bn; looks to have had Panzers proper during 1942 at least, then refitted with Stugs by late 1943?

After the battle magazine #129 covers the battle for Florence, and it describes the Kiwis knocking out two Pz Ivs - the first near Poggio Cigoli on August 1/2 and the second at point 337 the next day. Both are identified as belonging to Pz Abt 29.

[Richard Anderson]

29 Mot Inf Div - 129 Pz Bn; looks to have had Panzers proper during 1942 at least, then refitted with Stugs by late 1943?

After the battle magazine #129 covers the battle for Florence, and it describes the Kiwis knocking out two Pz Ivs - the first near Poggio Cigoli on August 1/2 and the second at point 337 the next day. Both are identified as belonging to Pz Abt 29.

Interesting, I hadn't noticed them before. Yes, around 11 March 1944 they reported 15 Panzer (unidentified) operational while with 14. Armee, then on 6 June when back with 10. Armee they are identified as 3 Pz IV operational (still no details on in repair). Finally on 10 September with 10 Armee they reported 39 on hand with 32 operational and 7 in long term repair. They are still with the division as of the last report I have, 10 April 1945 with supposedly 44 operational.

Italy was always interesting.

[Алексей]

Panzerlage den 1.2.45

4.SS-Pol.Pz.Gren.Div.(15.1.45)
Pz.Bef.III–1/1(combat ready/under repair)

18.Pz.Gren.Div.(30.12.44)
Pz.Bef.III–2/0

11.SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div.Nordland(15.1.45)
Pz.V–2/1

25.Pz.Gren.Div.(15.1.45)
Pz.IV(L48)–0/1
Pz.V–3/24
Flak IV–1/2

Fuhrer-Begl.Brig.(15.1.45)
Pz.IV(L48)–8/4
Beob.Pz.III–5/0
Flak IV–1/1

Fuhrer–Gren.Brig.(15.1.45)
Pz.IV–1/4
Pz.V–3/22
Pz.Bef.IV–0/1
Beob.Pz.III–5/0
Flak IV–1/3

3.Pz.Gren.Div.(15.1.45)
Pz.Bef.III–1/-
Pz.Bef.IV–1/1

15 Pz.Gren.Div.(15.1.45)
Pz.IV(L48)–6/-
Pz.Bef.III–1/0
Flak IV–1/1

17.SS-Pz.Gren.Div."G.v.B"(15.1.45)
Pz.IV(L48)–6/21
Pz.V–15/24
Pz.Bef.IV–-/1
Beob.Pz.IV–4/1
38t–0/2
Flak IV–2/-

29 Pz.Gren.Div.(15.1.45)
Pz.IV–39/5
38t–7/-

90 Pz.Gren.Div.(15.1.45)
38t–6/2
Pz.Bef.III–2/-
Beob.Pz.III–1/1

16.SS-Pz.Gr.Div."R.F.SS"(30.12.44)
Pz.Bef.IV–1/2

[perrya]

Does anyone of numbers and types of AFV in the 3rd and 60th Mot. divisions August-Sept 1942 at Stalingrad? In early august, each had no more than 10, yet, battle accounts indicate both had 40 AFVs by end of August. True?
Perry