Size of von Manstein's AG South HQ Staff in 1943

[Dann Falk]

Greetings All,

I'm trying to find out the size, number of people assigned, to von Manstein's AG South HQ in 1943.

If possible, (not needed) a breakdown of the numbers of people assigned to different sections: Staff offers, support personnel, security, aircraft, communication... and so on.

The basic total of personnel assigned is enough for me.

Thanks in advance for any info.

Dann

[Sheldrake]

What do want the information for?
This link gives the staff of an Oberkommano einer Heeresgruppe KStN 9 (1.1.1940)
https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn91jan40.html

[Dann Falk]

Thanks Sheldrake for the good info.

I would think a AG HQ in 1943 Russia, would be somewhat larger, maybe with a dedicated security company.

Also, on the link, I did not see any radio or phone trucks or equipment, strange.

I wanted this info because I'm writing my follow on (second) book about the 64th/7th Guards Army (yes a Soviet Army). I was writing about how von Manstein moved his AG South HQ and I have no idea how large an undertaking that would be. By your chart, a 1940 HQ contained 470 people and 105 vehicles.

Once again thanks for the information.
Dann

[Sheldrake]

You may be right. That establishment was a n HQ. The communications and defence element may have been on a different establishment.

IRRC Manstein's HQ was formed as an emergency organisation to take command of a chaotic situation. Sure there was an establishment for an Army Group HQ, but that might not have been there on day one.

[Dann Falk]

Agreed, but I'm looking at July-November 1943, so von Manstein's AG South HQ should have been fully formed.

My thinking was that moving around an Army Group HQ, would have been a big deal and would have taken some time and planning to establish it in another location. Maybe for a full Army Group HQ, a week or two notice would be needed to shift the HQ to another location and to set up the communication nets, airfields, security, housing, and so on, maybe 600-800 people and 200 vehicles.

If anyone has other information please let us now.

Dann

[Art]

Situation as of December 1942

[Dann Falk]

Thanks Art for the info,

So, if I'm reading this correctly AG Don HQ in Dec 42, contained:

149 Officers
169 Officials
842 NCO's
1,948 Men
for a total of 3,108 personal.

[Art]

No, that's the command of the army group rear area with with attached units. You need Führgs.Abt. Obkdo.H.Gr. for an authorized strength of a part of the Army Group HQ. I don't quite understand what "Führungsabteilung" was supposed to mean exactly in this case. The same table also gives an authorized strength of signals elements attached to HQ, map and survey battalion, map depot etc.

[Dann Falk]

OK the Führgs.Abt. Obkdo.H.Gr. only gives us 301 people, not enough. Maybe we can get some help from a German Speaker.

Dann

[Yuri]

You may be right. That establishment was a n HQ. The communications and defence element may have been on a different establishment.

IRRC Manstein's HQ was formed as an emergency organisation to take command of a chaotic situation. Sure there was an establishment for an Army Group HQ, but that might not have been there on day one.

This is not entirely correct. Or rather, quite wrong.
The headquarters of the Army Group "Don" was formed in October 1942. Another name for this Army Group is the Army Group "Marshal Antonescu".
It was assumed that in October 1942, Stalingrad would be completely captured. The headquarters of Army Group "DON" ("Marshal Antonescu") was waiting for this moment to take over the leadership of the forces operating in the area on both sides of Stalingrad.
Namely. The Army Group "Marshal Antonescu" was to include the Romanian 3rd Army, the German 6th Army, the German 4th Tank Army, and the Romanian 4th Army. All the structures of headquarters the army group "Don" ("Marshal Antonescu") were staffed and operated in parallel with headquarters of the army group "B" in what related to the actions of the four armies in question.
Interesting moment. On November 20, the headquarters of the Romanian 4th Army took command of the Romanian army corps operating South of Stalingrad. By chance, the Stavka appointed the beginning of the action of the Stalingrad front troops in operation Uranus on this day.
Thus, Manstein's headquarters was not created in chaos and was fully aware of everything that was happening.

[Art]

Wasn't the Army Group Don HQ created from the 11 Army HQ?

[Yuri]

The commander of 11th Army and some members of the staff of this Army occupied the corresponding positions in the headquarters of the Army Group "DON". All the elements of control and supply already existed and were in operation (communication lines and frequencies; intelligence; supply: combat, fuel, food and clothing warehouses, repair workshops; necessary parks, etc.).