Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
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Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
Dear All,
Why no SS units were used during the battle of Stalingrad? I am counting on 1st, 2nd and 5th SS Divisions. I am not counting on 3rd SS Division Totenkopf because it was engaged in Demyansk and suffered badly during the battle. 4th SS Division Polizei was near Leningrad and also not an elite one.
1st and 2nd were refitting in France and later on took part in Operation Anton (military occupation of Vichy France), they both spent almost half of the 1942 in France. When the situation was taking a u-turn on the AGS's sector both of them could be used to stabilize the front/situation.
I am also not counting on other SS Divisions like Nord, etc. because they were not elite and also busy on other parts of the Front or in Balkans.
Regards
Naveed Shahzad
Why no SS units were used during the battle of Stalingrad? I am counting on 1st, 2nd and 5th SS Divisions. I am not counting on 3rd SS Division Totenkopf because it was engaged in Demyansk and suffered badly during the battle. 4th SS Division Polizei was near Leningrad and also not an elite one.
1st and 2nd were refitting in France and later on took part in Operation Anton (military occupation of Vichy France), they both spent almost half of the 1942 in France. When the situation was taking a u-turn on the AGS's sector both of them could be used to stabilize the front/situation.
I am also not counting on other SS Divisions like Nord, etc. because they were not elite and also busy on other parts of the Front or in Balkans.
Regards
Naveed Shahzad
Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
There was no particular reason why the OKH needed to prefer waffen ss units. Anyway, a lot of divisions were needed and preferably from as close by as possible. Pulling back Heeresgrupe A was the easiest solution but there was an unwillingness to give up the gains made so only a few units from there were sent .
From the west the 6.Pz was sent first; the 7. Pz followed in december. Das Reich and LAH were ordered to the eastern front in january. Totenkopf got a month reprieve as it had not yet been refitting long enough and had many untrained recruits.
From the west the 6.Pz was sent first; the 7. Pz followed in december. Das Reich and LAH were ordered to the eastern front in january. Totenkopf got a month reprieve as it had not yet been refitting long enough and had many untrained recruits.
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Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
And it wouldn't make a difference, they would be destroyed just like the 6th Army. You talk about "elite" SS divisions, there was no such thing. Even if the 'strongest' SS Divisions like the Leibstandarte would be part of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was no chance of victory against overwhelming Soviet powers.
Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
They would not have been in the pocket so would not have been destroyed. The Das Reich and LAH can certainly BE considered among the better german divisions but saving 6. Army needed a lot more than 2 divisions and certainly not ones that had to come all the way from France.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 12:51And it wouldn't make a difference, they would be destroyed just like the 6th Army. You talk about "elite" SS divisions, there was no such thing. Even if the 'strongest' SS Divisions like the Leibstandarte would be part of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was no chance of victory against overwhelming Soviet powers.
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Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
I actually meant that if the Leibstandarte, or any other strong SS Division, participated from the start. They would have been in the pocket and destroyed, because Hitler didn't allow a retreat. We can only speculate what Hitler would have done if several SS Divisions were inside the pocket in Stalingrad. Would he have allowed a retreat to escape destruction of his beloved SS divisions like the LSSAH?Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 13:43They would not have been in the pocket so would not have been destroyed. The Das Reich and LAH can certainly BE considered among the better german divisions but saving 6. Army needed a lot more than 2 divisions and certainly not ones that had to come all the way from France.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 12:51And it wouldn't make a difference, they would be destroyed just like the 6th Army. You talk about "elite" SS divisions, there was no such thing. Even if the 'strongest' SS Divisions like the Leibstandarte would be part of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was no chance of victory against overwhelming Soviet powers.
Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
They would never have been there. Only LAH could have participated but as part of 1.Pz army so would have been far from Stalingrad.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 14:06I actually meant that if the Leibstandarte, or any other strong SS Division, participated from the start. They would have been in the pocket and destroyed, because Hitler didn't allow a retreat. We can only speculate what Hitler would have done if several SS Divisions were inside the pocket in Stalingrad. Would he have allowed a retreat to escape destruction of his beloved SS divisions like the LSSAH?Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 13:43They would not have been in the pocket so would not have been destroyed. The Das Reich and LAH can certainly BE considered among the better german divisions but saving 6. Army needed a lot more than 2 divisions and certainly not ones that had to come all the way from France.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 12:51And it wouldn't make a difference, they would be destroyed just like the 6th Army. You talk about "elite" SS divisions, there was no such thing. Even if the 'strongest' SS Divisions like the Leibstandarte would be part of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was no chance of victory against overwhelming Soviet powers.
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Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
My point was only if...if, if.Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 14:14They would never have been there. Only LAH could have participated but as part of 1.Pz army so would have been far from Stalingrad.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 14:06I actually meant that if the Leibstandarte, or any other strong SS Division, participated from the start. They would have been in the pocket and destroyed, because Hitler didn't allow a retreat. We can only speculate what Hitler would have done if several SS Divisions were inside the pocket in Stalingrad. Would he have allowed a retreat to escape destruction of his beloved SS divisions like the LSSAH?Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 13:43They would not have been in the pocket so would not have been destroyed. The Das Reich and LAH can certainly BE considered among the better german divisions but saving 6. Army needed a lot more than 2 divisions and certainly not ones that had to come all the way from France.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 12:51And it wouldn't make a difference, they would be destroyed just like the 6th Army. You talk about "elite" SS divisions, there was no such thing. Even if the 'strongest' SS Divisions like the Leibstandarte would be part of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was no chance of victory against overwhelming Soviet powers.
Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
5.SS was one of the key units in Army Group A (Caucasus) and deeply embedded in the fighting there.
Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
They could have been removed before the total destruction of the pocket... like many panzer crews and specialist.
Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
The reason why 1 &2 SS were sent to France was as a result of the build up for Operation Jubilee the Dieppe Raid. Hitler ordered the move to France in July 1942.Naveed Shahzad wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 11:22Why no SS units were used during the battle of Stalingrad? I am counting on 1st, 2nd and 5th SS Divisions. I am not counting on 3rd SS Division Totenkopf because it was engaged in Demyansk and suffered badly during the battle. 4th SS Division Polizei was near Leningrad and also not an elite one.
1st and 2nd were refitting in France and later on took part in Operation Anton (military occupation of Vichy France), they both spent almost half of the 1942 in France. When the situation was taking a u-turn on the AGS's sector both of them could be used to stabilize the front/situation.
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Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
Your ignorance just gets better and better, both units were later destroyed on the Eastern Front after coming from France in the case of the LAH veer Italy and had to go back to France for rest and refitting before been destroyed in France.Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 13:43They would not have been in the pocket so would not have been destroyed. The Das Reich and LAH can certainly BE considered among the better german divisions but saving 6. Army needed a lot more than 2 divisions and certainly not ones that had to come all the way from France.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 12:51And it wouldn't make a difference, they would be destroyed just like the 6th Army. You talk about "elite" SS divisions, there was no such thing. Even if the 'strongest' SS Divisions like the Leibstandarte would be part of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was no chance of victory against overwhelming Soviet powers.
As for been among the better divisions not really average at best, you should not believe the propaganda Wittmann was mediocre with made up kills as was Peiper promoted beyond is capabilities as a regimental commander.At best an average armoured battalion commander.
Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
What a load of nonsense. You talking of ignorance is a good one All german divisions were far reduced in strength after months of heavy fighting. You have tunnel vision by looking only only at waffen ss divisions. Your opinions about Wittmann and Peiper are only motivated by an anti waffen ss bias. You would not even bother to make similar comments about any army commanders. Do some reading and come back then .Leprechaun wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 21:00Your ignorance just gets better and better, both units were later destroyed on the Eastern Front after coming from France in the case of the LAH veer Italy and had to go back to France for rest and refitting before been destroyed in France.Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 13:43They would not have been in the pocket so would not have been destroyed. The Das Reich and LAH can certainly BE considered among the better german divisions but saving 6. Army needed a lot more than 2 divisions and certainly not ones that had to come all the way from France.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 12:51And it wouldn't make a difference, they would be destroyed just like the 6th Army. You talk about "elite" SS divisions, there was no such thing. Even if the 'strongest' SS Divisions like the Leibstandarte would be part of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was no chance of victory against overwhelming Soviet powers.
As for been among the better divisions not really average at best, you should not believe the propaganda Wittmann was mediocre with made up kills as was Peiper promoted beyond is capabilities as a regimental commander.At best an average armoured battalion commander.
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Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
Your talking about SS units why would I need to bring Heer commanders into the debate ?Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 21:08What a load of nonsense. You talking of ignorance is a good one All german divisions were far reduced in strength after months of heavy fighting. You have tunnel vision by looking only only at waffen ss divisions. Your opinions about Wittmann and Peiper are only motivated by an anti waffen ss bias. You would not even bother to make similar comments about any army commanders. Do some reading and come back then .Leprechaun wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 21:00Your ignorance just gets better and better, both units were later destroyed on the Eastern Front after coming from France in the case of the LAH veer Italy and had to go back to France for rest and refitting before been destroyed in France.Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 13:43They would not have been in the pocket so would not have been destroyed. The Das Reich and LAH can certainly BE considered among the better german divisions but saving 6. Army needed a lot more than 2 divisions and certainly not ones that had to come all the way from France.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 12:51And it wouldn't make a difference, they would be destroyed just like the 6th Army. You talk about "elite" SS divisions, there was no such thing. Even if the 'strongest' SS Divisions like the Leibstandarte would be part of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was no chance of victory against overwhelming Soviet powers.
As for been among the better divisions not really average at best, you should not believe the propaganda Wittmann was mediocre with made up kills as was Peiper promoted beyond is capabilities as a regimental commander.At best an average armoured battalion commander.
I think you should read your posts before posting
Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
You only making nasty comments about ss units or commanders betrays a bias.Leprechaun wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 23:34Your talking about SS units why would I need to bring Heer commanders into the debate ?Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 21:08What a load of nonsense. You talking of ignorance is a good one All german divisions were far reduced in strength after months of heavy fighting. You have tunnel vision by looking only only at waffen ss divisions. Your opinions about Wittmann and Peiper are only motivated by an anti waffen ss bias. You would not even bother to make similar comments about any army commanders. Do some reading and come back then .Leprechaun wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 21:00Your ignorance just gets better and better, both units were later destroyed on the Eastern Front after coming from France in the case of the LAH veer Italy and had to go back to France for rest and refitting before been destroyed in France.Aida1 wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 13:43They would not have been in the pocket so would not have been destroyed. The Das Reich and LAH can certainly BE considered among the better german divisions but saving 6. Army needed a lot more than 2 divisions and certainly not ones that had to come all the way from France.PatrickBateman wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 12:51And it wouldn't make a difference, they would be destroyed just like the 6th Army. You talk about "elite" SS divisions, there was no such thing. Even if the 'strongest' SS Divisions like the Leibstandarte would be part of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was no chance of victory against overwhelming Soviet powers.
As for been among the better divisions not really average at best, you should not believe the propaganda Wittmann was mediocre with made up kills as was Peiper promoted beyond is capabilities as a regimental commander.At best an average armoured battalion commander.
I think you should read your posts before posting
Re: Why no SS units during the battle of Stalingrad?
Most likely- they would have been shipped out. Besides being Hitler's palace guard and his most loyal troops, the LAH/DR contained the leadership corps of the SS formations that were not raised yet..