What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Post Reply
User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#76

Post by Yuri » 05 Apr 2020, 16:11

The territory of RK-Ostland was divided into four General Districts: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Belarus.
The Reichs-Kommissariat Ukraine was also divided into General Вistricts, of which the Tavria General Вistrict is the most important for us - this district included the Crimea (Gotland).
The names of Reichs-Kommissariats and General Districts should not be misleading: the territory of the RK Ukraine is not the same as the territory of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and the territory of the General District Latvia is not the same as the territory of the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic.
For example: Stalingrad is RK Ukraine, General District Wolgaland-Sud; Smolensk is RK Ostland, General District Weiseruthenien; Pskov is RK Ostland, General District Latvia etc.
The territories of the Reichs-Kommissariats and General Districts are approximately shown on this map (two Reichs-Kommissariats actually existed, and the other two - RK Moscowy and RK Caucasus - did not have time).
EppAndGeoringTroopsInUSSR.jpg

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#77

Post by Yuri » 06 Apr 2020, 12:02

I do not have data from the German statistical office on the size of the territories and the population of the Bialystok Bezirk and the Lemberg District, which were incorporated into the German Reich on September 1, 1941. Perhaps someone has such data, it would be very nice to place them here.
Currently, you can only determine such data approximately from this table.
UdSSR-People.jpg
Relative to the population, this is 2,500,000 people in each of these two territories. Thus, on September 1, 1941, there were about 116,000,000 people under the rule of the German Reich.
As previously reported, in January 1944, the power of the Third Reich extended to all the other occupied territories of the USSR, which were not part of it until August 23, 1939.
This gives an increase of 13,200,000 people, so the total population under the rule of the German III Reich will be 129,200,000 people.


User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#78

Post by Yuri » 06 Apr 2020, 13:07

In the course of researching the Battle for state farm "Red Star" /state farm 79, - (December 1942, the lower course of the Chir river)-, we met the chief of staff of the 48th Tank Corps, Lieutenant Colonel Mellentin, and the commander of the 11th Panzer Division - General Balck.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=116000
At the beginning of 1944, General Balck became the commander of this Panzer Corps, which was operating during this period in the part of the territory of Ukraine that was included in the German Reich. This formidable the General Balck's order on March 12, 1944 leaves no doubt that total mobilization was carried out in these territories.
XXXXVIII_PzK_Balck_Mobilization_44-03-12.jpg
Translated from the German 12.4.1944 year

XXXXVIII.PzK.
Corps commander
12.3.44
Command Post

The Corps is currently operating in a territory that is an additional territory of the German State and is just as protected by the German Armed Forces as our Homeland.
Thousands of young people from the local towns and villages are fighting in the ranks of the SS and have justified our trust.
Therefore, it is impossible to approach the local population with the same measure as the Russians. We should see him as relatives, our colleagues in the fight against Bolshevism, and treat them accordingly.
I strictly forbid-any kind of confiscation and requisition, as it concerns the private property of the civilian population, and will mercilessly punish any violations of my order.

Signed: Balck

Head of the Investigative section of the Intelligence Department of the First Ukrainian front headquarters
Captain of justice (signed) /DMITRIEV/
"___"April 1944

Military interpreter of the Investigative part of the Intelligence Department
Captain of the administrative service (signed) /ALEKSEEV/

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#79

Post by Yuri » 06 Apr 2020, 15:49

At the same time and in the same place, that is, in December 1942 near state Farm 79 (December 1942, the lower course of the river Chir), we met with the 384th Infantry Division, created as we remember, from the Battle Group Adam.
In March 1944, this division was active in the Ukraine, as was the General Balck's 48th Panzer Corps, the 384th Infantry Division was involved in the mobilization of the population in the newly annexed territories of the German Third Reich. See paragraph 7 of operational order No. 42 of March 25, 1944.
44-03-25 384ID_Mobilization.jpg
My poor translation
===================
384.Inf.Div.
Ia Nr.406/44 secret
Command post
25.3.1944

Operational order Nr. 42
....
7.) Weekly combing of localities.
Henceforth, conduct a weekly search of localities, as prescribed by division order No. 146/44 of 24.3.44, in order to mobilize civilians fit for military service and evacuate women and children.
....

Division commander (signature)

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#80

Post by Yuri » 06 Apr 2020, 17:22

From the documents of the same 384th infantry division, we can learn about some aspects of the relationship between German and non-German servicemans.
PzAOK1_384ID_43-11-20.jpg
My poor translation
=================
And copy of a copy.
Secret!
Pz.A. O. K. 1.
A. H. Qu., November 20, 1943

Contents: on the treatment of foreign (non-German) formations (Verbänden).
Complaints are received from German Chiefs and Commanders of non-German units that their units are unceremoniously expelled from their occupied apartments in order to accommodate German troops, that they are often forcibly used to perform any work, and in common they are treated unreasonably poorly.
Such behavior undermines not only the authority of the German army, but also to the detriment of the interests of the German command.
Non-German units are a tangible support in the sense of freeing German troops from many functions in the war.
And they will carry out their tasks only when they will meet, providing appropriate assistance and support, and if the attitude of the German troops will not allow themselves to do things that humiliate their honor and dignity.
Bad treatment of them will lead to negative results for the German army.
Representatives of formations of non-German nationality are mostly under the oppressive impression of the withdrawal of German troops. They are also particularly vulnerable to enemy propaganda, which threatens them with reprisals against both their own person and their family members.
It is in our interests, therefore, to treat these people well and in no case give them the idea that they are allegedly used by the Germans as an auxiliary means of fighting and are not recognized by the German command as equal fighters. At the same time, it is necessary to play on their strongly expressed sense of ambition as much as possible.
Immediately inform the troops of the above and warn that any unjustified ill-treatment of representatives of non-German formations is harmful to the interests of the German army, it will be regarded as non-compliance with the order of the German command and the perpetrators will be punished accordingly.
======
384.ID
Command post, 3.12.43.
Abt. Ic


The above copy to the manual and execution.

For the division commander
First officer of the General staff.
(signature)

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#81

Post by Yuri » 07 Apr 2020, 18:27

The most famous formation created from the population of the part of the territory of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic that was annexed to the Great German Third Reich is the 14.Freiwilligen - Division der SS "Galizien".
Waffen-SS 14 Galizien Division.jpg
Waffen-SS 14 Galizien Division.jpg (93.88 KiB) Viewed 937 times
Governor-General of District Galicia, Dr.Otto v.Wächter is photographed with soldiers of the 4th Galician SS volunteer regiment Vasil Vikluk and Vasil Biletsky, who were awarded the Iron Cross II class. Kamenka-Strumylova, April 1944.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#82

Post by Yuri » 07 Apr 2020, 18:32

44-07-03 14_Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (Galizische Nr 1).jpg
Translated from the German

14TH VOLUNTEER GALICIAN DIVISION OF THE SS COMMANDER.
DIVISION COMMAND POST 3.7.44

SOLDIERS OF MY DIVISION!

The headquarters of the 13th Army Corps informed me that the entire the division’s personnel on the corps’s scale had so far made a good impression.
As your commander, I am happy to inform you of this.
This appreciation should serve as an incentive to further exemplary discipline and order, as well as to the combat readiness of each of us.

SOLDIERS OF MY DIVISION!

You understand the significance of the outcome of this war, and in this connection the freedom of our peoples, with all seriousness. We must seize freedom, otherwise all the sacrifices made will be in vain.
We are on the eve of a major offensive by the enemy in Galicia.
Before you are soldiers of the German army, who have shown themselves in many battles.
On the main line of the Galician front, being brought into action in the depth of the defense, our young division will have the task of delaying and parrying the advance of the main enemy forces.
The soldiers of the division must protect the native land of their fathers and mothers with their own bodies.
I demand no more from every soldier in my division than I demand from every German soldier during the five years of the war: namely, complete and unselfish devotion to the individual in the struggle for the Fatherland.
I rely on Your, Ukrainians, to protect the lives of your families from the Bolshevik hordes.
Prove that a long period of thorough combat training has formed you into outstanding, fanatical fighters against the Red hordes.

Mailing list of orders 4:
1 copy per company.

signature
Division commander
Major-General of the Waffen-SS

16.7.44 translated Krynkina (signature)

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#83

Post by Yuri » 07 Apr 2020, 18:55

Now let's go back to the beginning, that is, to the start of Barbarossa. The OKH foresaw the possibility of a shortage of forces to protect the rear and flanks of the army corps at the start of Barbarossa, and in this regard appealed to the SS-Reichsführer for help. Himmler satisfied the OKH's requests. Here, for example, is a radio message stating that six police regiments (four motorized infantry regiments and two cavalry regiments) are assigned to protect the rear and flanks of the VIII Army Corps (AOK.9).
41-06-19 OKH_SS-Verband_2(1200).jpg
SS-Verband 21.6.1941
SS-Verband.png
SS-Verband.png (410.91 KiB) Viewed 932 times

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#84

Post by Yuri » 07 Apr 2020, 18:58

What the OKH could not have foreseen, however, was the size of these forces, as well as the duration of their use.
41-07-03 Problem Abstand Panzer-Infant.jpg
As you can see from this note, on July 3, 1941, it became clear that there was a PROBLEM, and a huge Problem, and this problem will continue to exist for a long time. For its resolution, it is necessary to involve everything, that is, literally everything: Polizei-and Landesschutzen-Eincheiten (units), WachBataillonen, Sicherungtruppen, Kolonnen, Bau, Railway, Luftwaffe, O.T., R.A.D., and even the Heer's Signallers (Heeres-Nachrichten).

User avatar
Texas Jäger
Member
Posts: 131
Joined: 07 Apr 2020, 01:29
Location: Montgomery, Texas

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#85

Post by Texas Jäger » 09 Apr 2020, 02:26

Yuri wrote:
04 Mar 2020, 21:18
Not all divisions are listed in the information reference of the General staff of the red Army. In particular, there is no 336th infantry division, which I probably know more about than its commander, Lieutenant General Lucht, did. Yes, the same division that participated in the battle for state farm No. 79 ( state farm "Red Star"). In the division of General Lucht there were no more than 55% of Germans. Others are: poles, Czechs. French, Dutch, and Slovenes (not Slovaks).
In this regard, nothing has changed in the division of General Lucht and six months after the battle for state farm No. 79.
1_2.jpg
my translation is always bad
.../cut/
Due to uneven losses of divisions and conscription of the population of the occupied countries, the system of replenishment of reserve battalions by natives of certain regions of Germany was violated. As a result, the personnel of most divisions operating at the front became motley in their national composition.
Defector - a soldier of the 7th Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 685th Infantry Regiment of the 336th Infantry Division, who defected to the Red Army on 28.6.43 - said: "In the 7th Company - 25 French Alsatians, 12 Slovenes, 12 Poles, the rest of the Germans and Austrians".
All infantry divisions operating before the front (South-Western front-Yuri) have up to 20% of non-German soldiers.
There were no changes in the recruitment and training system for conscripts. Over the past 6 months, there have been more frequent cases when marching battalions intended for one division have been joined by others divisions. For example, the No. 304 marching battalion assigned to the 304th Infantry Division was merged into the 294th Infantry Division; the Zender marching battalion assigned to the 16th Motorized Division was merged into the 15th Air Field Division.
Similar facts are noted in the 23rd Panzer Division, the 336th and 111th Infantry Divisions, and others.
To create army reserves, the German command often sends to the front, so-called "special purpose" marching battalions that are not intended for a specific mission, which are distributed among divisions according to the decision of the army command.
Much more widely than in 1942, prisoners of war were used in the rear divisions of active units, construction and security units, with the aim of freeing the Germans, who were transferred to combat units.
In the 79th, 111th and 306th Infantry Divisions, separate construction battalions were created from prisoners of war – traitors to the Motherland.
In all infantry divisions operating in front of the front, there are 10-20 prisoners of war and traitors to the Motherland in each company.
In the occupied territory, the Germans created a number of legions of traitors to the Motherland, which are used as security units, and in some cases act on the front line of defense in the most passive areas of the front.
In connection with the total mobilization, the number of women employed in communications units, large headquarters and rear units has increased significantly.
Persons who are unfit for military service and women are sent as "universal labor service" to military enterprises and transport, where they are trained by qualified masters, and then take the places of workers who are sent to the front.
Defector-corporal of the 17th Infantry Division- poles Mira Theodor, who defected to the red Army 8.8.43, showed: "5 weeks ago, the battalion received a replenishment in Germany at the age of 18 to 35 years. Of the new recruits, many worked in military /aviation / factories".
In addition, every effort is being made to attract foreign workers to work in the military industry, as well as prisoners of war in secondary enterprises.
Able-bodied war invalids are also sent to the military industry.
Older persons aged 36 and over are not sent to active units, but to security units, construction battalions, and other rear units.
=========
To be continued
Saying this without much knowledge on late-war German troop composition on the Eastern Front: the Soviets had an awfully loose definition of “defector”. To Stalin, the same could apply to any soldiers of the Red Army that surrendered. And it was politically convenient to claim entire ethnic groups switched sides like what happened with the Chechens for example as a pretext for deportations, even though from the figures I’ve seen relatively few Chechens served for the Germans compared to Azeris and Georgians.

I think it’s interesting the Soviets would count Alsatians separately, Alsace and the Moselle region of Lorraine were formerly a part of Germany and were annexed again and their population German-speaking, hardly “non-German”, they wouldn’t even count as foreign Volksdeutsche at that point.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#86

Post by Yuri » 09 Apr 2020, 08:20

Texas Jäger wrote:
09 Apr 2020, 02:26

the Soviets had an awfully loose definition of “defector”.
Here I gave two transcripts of the interview:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=190068&p=2252260#p2252260
first - Protocol of interrogation of a defector, second - Protocol of interrogation of a prisoner of war.
Both protocols were drawn up on the same day, January 7, 1943, for military personnel from the same formation of the German armed forces. In this case, the division into a defector and a prisoner of war is made in full compliance with the Soviet definition of "defector" and the Soviet definition of"prisoner of war".
I believe that the Texas Department of the American branch of Western propaganda gave its "Soviet definition" of a defector and a prisoner of war, passing this product off as the original Soviet one.
Thus, you may have become, without knowing it, a victim of Western propaganda. If this is the case, then you can safely sue and bring these scammers to justice for causing moral harm. For my part, I promise to give You all possible assistance in this matter. There are so many records of interrogation of defectors and prisoners of war in the Central archive of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation that you can fill up the building of the Supreme court of the United States of America.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#87

Post by Yuri » 09 Apr 2020, 09:07

Texas Jäger wrote:
09 Apr 2020, 02:26

I think it’s interesting the Soviets would count Alsatians separately, Alsace and the Moselle region of Lorraine were formerly a part of Germany and were annexed again and their population German-speaking, hardly “non-German”, they wouldn’t even count as foreign Volksdeutsche at that point.
When it became clear that the French in the German armed forces were sharply divided into categories, they were considered separate categories: category: Alsatian-Lorraine; category: French.
In 1943, the first batch of 1,500 French volunteers (mostly Alsatians) were committed to the army of General de Gaulle. Through Iran and North Africa, these Alsatians reached Italy.
As of the beginning of June 1945, the NKVD PoW camps that were located on the territory of the USSR were registered:
Alsace-Lorraine ..............131;
French .....................15 139;
Luxembourgers ..............742.
Please note the following. In 1944-45, about 680,000 prisoners of war were released home or transferred to the national committees of liberated European countries directly from the Red Army PoW collection points.
In addition, several hundred thousand prisoners of war were transferred to the Yugoslavs, Poles, and Czechoslovaks without regard to their nationality.
In addition, about 318,000 prisoners of war died in the NKVD PoW camps (I do not know the division by nationality of these dead).
Finally, in June 1945, some 35,000 PoWs who were held in PoW camps in the USSR did not identify their nationality.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#88

Post by Yuri » 10 Apr 2020, 13:45

The above radiogram from 19.6.41 is received and decrypted by Heeres-Gr.-Nachrichtung-Regimet 537. This signal regiment obey directly to Field Marshal v.Bock. During the period from 10 May to 22 June 1940 (operations in Belgium and France), HNR.537 was also with the Bock's Army Group (Army Group "B") - at that time only a Colonel-General.
This is OoB HNR.537.
HG-N-Reg_537_Gliederung_.jpg
As you can see, the staff number (Soll-stärke) = 2410 Offz., Ufz. and Man.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#89

Post by Yuri » 10 Apr 2020, 13:51

This is line communication of the Army Group "Center" on 2.8.41 ( that is, at the very height of operation Barbarossa).
41-08-02 HG Mitte Leitungsskizze.jpg

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 1969
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 12:24
Location: Russia

Re: What percent of Ostfront losses were German?

#90

Post by Yuri » 10 Apr 2020, 13:59

These are the telephone lines that the HNR-537 served on 7.8.41
41-08-07 HG Mitte Nachrichung FernspreschenLeitungsskizze HNR_537.jpg
In the list of subscribers, we see all possible units of the rear structures (Nachschub, Bau, Transport, etc.) regiments, battalions, groups, etc.
To these we must add the Luftwaffe rear structures not shown here, as well as police regiments and battalions, OT and RAD Abteilungs.
During the period of the "Gelb" and "Rot" operations, HNR-537 had no combat losses.
On the other hand, during July and August 1941, this regiment lost irrevocably (KIA and MIA) more than two hundred people, that is, 10% Soll-stärke. HNR-537 is exclusively a rear unit, its soldiers do not operate on the front line, only up to the army headquarters and the headquarters of the tank group. At the same time, the Abteilungs, Companies and Platoons of this Signal Regiment are distributed over the entire area of operation of the Army Group "Center". This deployment the HNR-537's troops allows us to take the losses of this regiment for the average losses of other rear structures for the period July-August 1941. According to my calculations, the total number of German non-Heeres units during this period is 1,500,000.
Thus, from June 22 to August 31, 1941 for German non-Heeres units (including non-Wehrmacht units: OT, RAD, and others), the loss of killed and missing (KIA and MIA) - 150,000 people.
In the documents of the Wehrmacht (OKW and OKH), these losses (at least most of them) are not taken into account, But this is the German loss of the German armed forces.
Last edited by Yuri on 10 Apr 2020, 14:19, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”