Information about LVF soldiers
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Information about LVF soldiers
Hi All,
I am looking for information about Léon Merdjian and Léon Vatchnadzé. Both of them served with Legion of French Volunteers (LVF) and were only 15 years old (1941).
I want to know about their fate and some info about their service.
Léon Merdjian photo is also attached, this photo was taken at Golovbowo on December, 1941.
Regards
Naveed Shahzad
I am looking for information about Léon Merdjian and Léon Vatchnadzé. Both of them served with Legion of French Volunteers (LVF) and were only 15 years old (1941).
I want to know about their fate and some info about their service.
Léon Merdjian photo is also attached, this photo was taken at Golovbowo on December, 1941.
Regards
Naveed Shahzad
Re: Information about LVF soldiers
Hi. They were armenian's emigrants from France/ Vatchnadze was SCW fighter on Franco side.Naveed Shahzad wrote: ↑09 Apr 2020, 16:08Hi All,
I am looking for information about Léon Merdjian and Léon Vatchnadzé. Both of them served with Legion of French Volunteers (LVF) and were only 15 years old (1941).
I want to know about their fate and some info about their service.
Léon Merdjian photo is also attached, this photo was taken at Golovbowo on December, 1941.
Regards
Naveed Shahzad
This topic for Foreign vol's section
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
It seems impossible to me.Naveed Shahzad wrote: ↑09 Apr 2020, 16:08Hi All,
I am looking for information about Léon Merdjian and Léon Vatchnadzé. Both of them served with Legion of French Volunteers (LVF) and were only 15 years old (1941).
I want to know about their fate and some info about their service.
Léon Merdjian photo is also attached, this photo was taken at Golovbowo on December, 1941.
Regards
Naveed Shahzad
Selection for the LVF was very hard... 90% of candidates were dismissed...
I think that such a tiny and young boy could absolutely not join the LVF in summer 41.
Re: Information about LVF soldiers
I cannot take credit for the research just the rather dodgy translation from French. This comes from the brilliant Gregory Boyusse (member of this forum). Next to nothing is known about Merdjian, even his fate is unclear. There is more on LEO Vatchnadze.
Léo Vatchnadze(1) was born on April 11, 1927 in Tiflis, Georgia. A refugee in France, he was only fifteen years old when he joined the LVF in the summer of 1941, making him one of the youngest legionnaires!(2) He had to have his uniform specially made for him in Deba. He was demobilized after the first winter of 1941-1942.
Exactly what he did after demobilisation is not known, but he was in the Tarn (Southern France) in the summer of 1944. On 14 July 1944 he surrendered himself to the Montagne Noire Maquis, saying he was a Georgian deserter (he was in German uniform). He was assigned to a section of North Africans, quartered in a farm. On the evening of 26 July, he disappeared and the next day German troops appeared at the farm but found only two sentries (the platoon had moved), who they captured along with two civilians. Vatchanadze was seen accompanying the Germans.
On 16 August 1944, sensing the German defeat, he joined the Soviet FFI battalion at Lisle-sur-Tarn, and fought against the Germans at Albi. Shortly after the liberation he was found by former officers of the Maquis in Albi prison(3) . They handed him over to Military Security, but he was a judged innocent and released around November 1944. He managed to enlist in the army(4) , then, knowing his past might catch up with him, in the Foreign Legion (in March 1945). He was awarded the Croix de Guerre with a Bronze star (the citation came from his brigade)(5) on 31 May 1946
On 12 February 1947 he was tried in the Court of Justice of Toulouse and was sentenced to twenty years hard labour and the confiscation of his property. His appeal was rejected on 6 March and he was imprisoned in Eysses but is selected for an amnesty on August 16, 1947 and is released the following October 23 and lives in France until he retires to Le Vésinet.
1. Sometimes mistakenly named "Léon".
2. With the young Merdjian, of Armenian origin, also 15 years old.
3. When captured Vatchnadze was confronted: "Little bastard, aren't you ashamed, after having been brought up in France, by French people, with
French money, to have committed such treachery! “. Vatchnadze answered: "I'm glad I did what I did, you Frenchmen, I hate you and if I had to
do it again, even knowing that I would end up falling into your hands, I would do it again”
4. This was facilitated by his uncle, Captain Vatchnadze, an officer in the 5th Armoured Division's reconnaissance regiment.
5. Citation reads "This young and courageous legionnaire showed great bravery on many occasions, and particularly on April 15, 1945 in Lengenbrandt.
There in a battle in the woods he distinguished himself during an enemy counter-attack, then afterwards he remained on lookout during a violent
bombardment. He always volunteers for the most dangerous patrols”
Léo Vatchnadze(1) was born on April 11, 1927 in Tiflis, Georgia. A refugee in France, he was only fifteen years old when he joined the LVF in the summer of 1941, making him one of the youngest legionnaires!(2) He had to have his uniform specially made for him in Deba. He was demobilized after the first winter of 1941-1942.
Exactly what he did after demobilisation is not known, but he was in the Tarn (Southern France) in the summer of 1944. On 14 July 1944 he surrendered himself to the Montagne Noire Maquis, saying he was a Georgian deserter (he was in German uniform). He was assigned to a section of North Africans, quartered in a farm. On the evening of 26 July, he disappeared and the next day German troops appeared at the farm but found only two sentries (the platoon had moved), who they captured along with two civilians. Vatchanadze was seen accompanying the Germans.
On 16 August 1944, sensing the German defeat, he joined the Soviet FFI battalion at Lisle-sur-Tarn, and fought against the Germans at Albi. Shortly after the liberation he was found by former officers of the Maquis in Albi prison(3) . They handed him over to Military Security, but he was a judged innocent and released around November 1944. He managed to enlist in the army(4) , then, knowing his past might catch up with him, in the Foreign Legion (in March 1945). He was awarded the Croix de Guerre with a Bronze star (the citation came from his brigade)(5) on 31 May 1946
On 12 February 1947 he was tried in the Court of Justice of Toulouse and was sentenced to twenty years hard labour and the confiscation of his property. His appeal was rejected on 6 March and he was imprisoned in Eysses but is selected for an amnesty on August 16, 1947 and is released the following October 23 and lives in France until he retires to Le Vésinet.
1. Sometimes mistakenly named "Léon".
2. With the young Merdjian, of Armenian origin, also 15 years old.
3. When captured Vatchnadze was confronted: "Little bastard, aren't you ashamed, after having been brought up in France, by French people, with
French money, to have committed such treachery! “. Vatchnadze answered: "I'm glad I did what I did, you Frenchmen, I hate you and if I had to
do it again, even knowing that I would end up falling into your hands, I would do it again”
4. This was facilitated by his uncle, Captain Vatchnadze, an officer in the 5th Armoured Division's reconnaissance regiment.
5. Citation reads "This young and courageous legionnaire showed great bravery on many occasions, and particularly on April 15, 1945 in Lengenbrandt.
There in a battle in the woods he distinguished himself during an enemy counter-attack, then afterwards he remained on lookout during a violent
bombardment. He always volunteers for the most dangerous patrols”
Re: Information about LVF soldiers
Is there any reason why the selection process was so strict? What sort of qualifications/abilities was the LVF looking for in volunteers, and what were common reasons for being rejected from joining?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑12 Apr 2020, 14:22Selection for the LVF was very hard... 90% of candidates were dismissed...
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
1) no prisoner of warViktor.S wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 19:16Is there any reason why the selection process was so strict? What sort of qualifications/abilities was the LVF looking for in volunteers, and what were common reasons for being rejected from joining?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑12 Apr 2020, 14:22Selection for the LVF was very hard... 90% of candidates were dismissed...
2) no criminal record
3) good teeth
4) good eyes
5) no lung veil
6) from 18 to 45 years old
7) over 1.80m if my souvenir is good
But you still fing young people like Merdjan or Vatchanadze, but also french boys like 16 yo.
I wonder how they looked like ? were they tall enough or strong and tall enough to look like grown men ? But the photo clearly show that he was not.
Most of the rejected were cause of bad teeth.
Concerning the figures, i was never able to get definitive ones.
Philippe Randa in his preface of Stoï ! p.6 talks about 12.000 people the first day and 10.000 the following weeks. That makes a total of 22.000 candidates. And among them only like 2.200 were selected. It makes a ratio of 10% or so. So the rate of rejected was like 90%.
But LeMarec & Lambert Français sous casque allemand p.23 talk about 10.738 volunteers from july 41 till may 43. 6.429 only were selected. It makes a ratio of more than 60% of incorporated.
So i guess that most of the candidates postulated during the summer of 41. The selection was hard. But after that, the numbre of candidates should have fallen a lot, and the selection was a lot softer.
Re: Information about LVF soldiers
Over 1.8 meters tall? That's taller than average even now in many countries (although I don't know about France). I would have expected height requirements to be a bit lower, especially back in that generation...
So they stopped taking new recruits into this unit after May 1943?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 22:12But LeMarec & Lambert Français sous casque allemand p.23 talk about 10.738 volunteers from july 41 till may 43.
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
Yes, losses were too big.Viktor.S wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 23:16Over 1.8 meters tall? That's taller than average even now in many countries (although I don't know about France). I would have expected height requirements to be a bit lower, especially back in that generation...
So they stopped taking new recruits into this unit after May 1943?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 May 2020, 22:12But LeMarec & Lambert Français sous casque allemand p.23 talk about 10.738 volunteers from july 41 till may 43.
The remnants became later the famous 'division Charlemagne'.
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
If selection was really so rigorous, why did the LVF perform so poorly at the front that it was quickly withdrawn and spent most of its existence on anti-partisan operations?
It strikes me that there is a lot of retrospective myth making about the LVF and Charlemagne.
Sid.
It strikes me that there is a lot of retrospective myth making about the LVF and Charlemagne.
Sid.
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
So rigourous ? You have to take into account that millions of french men who were able to the service were POW at the time... .so if you want, like 90% of valid service men could not postualte.Sid Guttridge wrote: ↑21 May 2020, 19:51If selection was really so rigorous, why did the LVF perform so poorly at the front that it was quickly withdrawn and spent most of its existence on anti-partisan operations?
It strikes me that there is a lot of retrospective myth making about the LVF and Charlemagne.
Sid.
That's why you had so many young or stranger there.
Concerning the big losses on eastern front, the LVF was sent into the battle in front of Moscow when the soviet troops were counter-attacking.
Dont forget they were not many. German losses on the eastern front were huge in early december in front of Moscow. The french arrived at the wrong time and the wrong place !
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
.....and were withdrawn from combat within a week and never returned to the front. 400 deserted before even reaching the front!
Sid
Sid
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
Oleg Beyda "France", p.304, in David Stahel, Joining Hitler’s Crusade, Cambridge 2018 :
Concerning the medical examination :
Concerning the medical examination :
Concerning the numbers :The requirements for enlisting in the legion were as follows: ‘Aryan’ origins ; age from eighteen to thirty years for private soldiers, corporals and non- commissioned officers, while for officers the limit was raised to forty years; minimum height 160 cm; and an absence of criminal convictions.48 Later, as an exception, men with a height of at least 154 cm came to be accepted, but the general constitution of the recruits had to be particularly sound. After 1943, sources speak of the LVF accepting recruits from eighteen to forty years, and officers to the age of fifty years.49 Eyesight had to be unimpaired. There could be no problems with hernias or varicose veins. Nor could there be problems with teeth; it was enough to
have three teeth missing or decayed, and entry to the legion was denied.50 (...)
On 28 August the volunteers underwent medical examination. The military medical commission received 1,679 soldiers, sifting out 800 of them because of problems with their teeth. The selection was extremely exacting, which may have been connected with the fact that the Germans
were trying to limit the number of volunteers. Abetz was unhappy this strictness.66 Later, this situation changed, with volunteers who were
examined in October noting that the inspection was cursory.67
The propaganda on the radio and in the press proclaimed that by the end of 1941 a total of 8,000 men, 3,000 from the unoccupied and 5,000 from the occupied zone, had signed up in the legion.68 This was untrue. Throughout the whole time the LVF existed (from July 1941 through August 1944), a total of 13,400 men applied to join its ranks. Of these, 4,600 were rejected for medical reasons (the same problem with teeth was often noted), while 3,000 were excluded on other grounds. In sum, only 5,800 volunteers were accepted into the LVF, with a little more than 3,000 of them joining the force during the first stage of its existence, that is, prior to the summer of 1942. According to other data, from July 1941 through June 1943 some 10,748 candidates applied, and of this number, the total accepted directly into the LVF was only 6,429. A proportion of the recruits were older than the age stipulated, while others were too young and had never borne arms. But despite not meeting the age qualifications, men in both categories joined the LVF and remained there.69 By the spring of 1943 a total of 169 had died in action, while 550 had been wounded.70
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
.....and yet, even after all this selection, the LVF still performed too poorly to spend more than a week at the front in its two-year existence!
Sid.
Sid.
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
Well, you can be 7 ft tall, all of muscles, with very good eyes... but when a shell hit you... it does not matter at all...Sid Guttridge wrote: ↑06 Jun 2020, 12:00.....and yet, even after all this selection, the LVF still performed too poorly to spend more than a week at the front in its two-year existence!
Sid.
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Re: Information about LVF soldiers
True, but Soviet shells weren't just falling on the LVF.
Sid.
Sid.