Waffen SS POWs Operations Windsor and Charnwood

[Panther Arthur]

Hello Everyone,

RE: 12th SS POWs Operations Charnwood and Windsor

I am submitting an article to the Canadian Military History Journal regarding how the Canadian Army took Waffen SS prisoners, what the process was and the practices of Canadian infantry in this regard in early July 1944. (Taking two operations as examples)

I am looking for POW totals taken for those Canadian Army operations WINDSOR and CHARNWOOD (Cdn part of the attack only).

LAC in Ottawa (the archives) is a problem for me right now and I can't go and access the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division intelligence summaries documents.

I have consulted the 12th SS Meyer divisional history and while they give KIA, WIA and missing, little is given past that. The Cdn Army regimental war diaries: Some mention prisoners, some don't - hard to get a proper number.

I am looking for the best "hard" number of 12th SS POWs taken by the Cdn Army 4-9 July 1944, and then I can compare it to some of the "missing" totals numbers supplied by Huber Meyer in the 12th SS divisional history.

Does anyone have this data?

Many thanks in advance,

Arthur Gullachsen

[Sheldrake]

This topic of treatment of the SS prisoners was part of a study comparing Heer and SS formations in Normandy undertaken by a German academic at the RMA Sandhurst about ten years ago. He had data about the differences between missing and PW. His conclusion that SS men were less likely to be taken prisoner. I can't remember his name, but I know a man who does. If you tell me a bit more about yourself and interest in a PM I will put you in touch. (Simon Trew should know this work as well so PM him.)

[Richard Anderson]

I'm afraid I only have 8-23August for 2d Canadian Corps. You could search http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocih ... kan_133700

[Panther Arthur]

Hello Sheldrake and R Anderson -

Thank you for this help.

Will dive into Heritage.ca later this weekend.

I have sent a PM to you, Sheldrake.

Arthur

[Richard Anderson]

Yeah, the only problem with the Heritage Canada site is that I have yet to find a finding aid for it?

[Panther Arthur]

Hello Richard -

Yes, it is a terrible problem that means pushing through tons of non-relevant things to find what you want.

Arthur

[Tom from Cornwall]

he only problem with the Heritage Canada site is that I have yet to find a finding aid for it?

Do you mean something like this spreadsheet?

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?resources/ ... dsheet.21/

Regards

Tom

[Richard Anderson]

he only problem with the Heritage Canada site is that I have yet to find a finding aid for it?

Do you mean something like this spreadsheet?

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?resources/ ... dsheet.21/

Regards

Tom

Oh, uh, yeah, I actually remember that now. Aging brain cells.

[Vierville]

What an interesting topic, particularly the conclusion that SS troops were less likely to be taken prisoner. It does make sense though, so many of the soldiets in Heer units were there on a less than voluntary basis.

[Sheldrake]

What an interesting topic, particularly the conclusion that SS troops were less likely to be taken prisoner. It does make sense though, so many of the soldiets in Heer units were there on a less than voluntary basis.

That isn't the whole rationale. True there are references to SS Men who refused to surrender. SS men had a deserved reputation as perpetrators of war crimes and as a consequence more likely to become victims themselves. Allied troops were less likely to allow SS Men to surrender.

[Panther Arthur]

Hello Tom from Cornwall - Thank you very much for the Heritage Excel spreadsheet link.

Arthur Gullachsen

[Richard Anderson]

What an interesting topic, particularly the conclusion that SS troops were less likely to be taken prisoner. It does make sense though, so many of the soldiets in Heer units were there on a less than voluntary basis.

It's possible that is true, but SS were captured in large numbers as well.

For example, for II Canadian Corps 8-23 August, 705 identified with SS divisions were captured out of 17,198, including 1,111 identified as Ostruppen or HiWi. So about 4.7% of "Germanic" troops. That is about half the proportion of SS troops in Ob.West as a whole, roughly 11.3%.

For the XIX U.S. Corps, fighting roughly adjacent the Canadians, but at the base of the encirclement, in a similar period, 11-30 August, only 194 SS were captured out of 7,422(not including 321 Osties), so just 2.6%. For the 90th ID, roughly opposite the Canadians, it was 1,180 SS captured (recorded for 11-30 August, but actually 11-22 August) of 9,546 (interestingly, no Ostruppen were counted), so 12.4%.

Given the patterns, I suspect that more important than the SS willingness to surrender or the Allies willingness to capture them, was the presence of SS to be captured. XIX Corps did not capture many because there were relatively few opposing them at this time. 90th ID captured more, because they were trying to hold the shoulder of the bag against SS and other troops trying to escape, while a proportion of those opposing the Canadians were attacking to try to hold the bag open...and so forth.

So I would hesitate to accept the conclusion that "SS troops were less likely to be taken prisoner" without a large number of caveats.

[ignacioosacar1]

Dear Forum,

What were the Wehrmacht units stationed in the Prague area on May 1945 ? I understand they were all racing West to surrender to the US forces so my request includes those marching towards the Pilsen area. I also know it was a very chaotic retreat of units which were on permanent move but I assume that Prague garrison Commander had a list of them at one point and also there was Allied Intelligence reports

Thanks you all

Cheers

[Sid Guttridge]

It should also be borne in mind that the W-SS in Normandy were all in mechanized formations and so were more able to "shoot and scoot" than most Army formations, most of which were foot- and horse-bound and some of which were entirely static.

Cheers,

Sid.