2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

[Tanker Mike]

Hello,

I am trying to figure out which KStNs the 2.Panzer-Division would have used to rebuild the 38.Pz.Jg.-Abt. in early 1944 while stationed in France. I did not see a 1943 Panzer-Division KStN List and Gliederung anywhere. Is one available? Also, I searched the various NARA documents I have but to no avail. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Mike

[Alanmccoubrey]

I don't know which KStN it was using but it was issued with 21 x Jagdpanzer IV L/48 in April 1944 so whatever KStN called for that would be good.

[jpz4]

Assuming it used the KStNs of a standard Pz.Div. 44, I would guess it shifted to/used KStN 1106 (f.G.) [1.4.44], 1149 (f.G.) [1.4.44], 1152 (f.G.) [1.4.44]. The question is when. Haven't looked into the numbers of a type Pz.Div. 43 though.

[Tanker Mike]

Assuming it used the KStNs of a standard Pz.Div. 44, I would guess it shifted to/used KStN 1106 (f.G.) [1.4.44], 1149 (f.G.) [1.4.44], 1152 (f.G.) [1.4.44]. The question is when. Haven't looked into the numbers of a type Pz.Div. 43 though.

Yes, you are correct. Just today while looking through the Jagdpanzer IV Nuts & Bolts book, I found a section on the 2.Panzer-Division that help answer my own question. Thanks for your help in clarifying.

Mike

[Sam Wren]

According to Normandie 1944 2.Panzer-Division Tome I: Reformation et Combats Janvier-Juin 1944 by Frédéric Deprun it was set up in January 1944 using:
Abteilungsstab - KStN 1106 1941
Panzerjäger-Kompanien (mot.) & (Sf.) - KStN 1140, 1148d

but then it states "Une organisation revue à partir d'avril 1944 avec des directives d'assouplissement des KStN libres." (An organization revised beginning in April 1944 with directives to relax the free KStNs.). My translation doesn't look quite right to me. I think that it might be referring to the adoption of the Freie Gliederung starting April but the is just a guess on my part. I know the author & can get some clarification if you like.

I have no idea if any of the above info is correct as I haven't checked it myself.

[mihaiS]

A couple of passages from Niklas Zetterling's Normandy 1944: German Military Organization, Combat Power and Organizational Effectiveness (the first one is based on a strength report dated 31.05.1944):

The division had 25 Pak 40 7.5 cm towed antitank guns and 16 (plus 5 in maintenance facilities) Jagdpanzer IV’s. It also had eight 8.8 cm Flak, that could augment the antitank capabilities. Panzerjäger-Abteilung 38 had an unusual organization. The 1. Kompanie had 7 Jagdpanzer IV’s, while the 2. Kompanie had 4 and the 3. Kompanie had 8.

Starting in June the organization of Panzerjäger-Abteilung 38 changed. On 1 July it had 10 Jagdpanzer IV’s each in the 1. And 2./Panzerjäger-Abteilung 38, while the 3. Kompanie had 9 towed antitank guns.

[yantaylor]

Sorry to go off topic here guys, but the question does concern the 2. panzer around the time in question.

I was looking at Martin Blocks link [thanks Alan] and it says that the 2. Panzer received Grille Ausf Hs on these dates;

2. Pz.Div. = 12 ab H.Za. 5.7.1943
2. Pz.Div. = 1 ab H.Za. am 30.11.1943

How many vehicles I don’t know, but the following year they also received some Grille Ausf Ms on this date;

2 Pz.Div. = 2 ab H.Za. am 28. Jan. 1944

Again, I don’t know how many vehicles the received or if both Ausf’s served together.

I have tried to convert German to English to see if I have read it right, but it won’t allow me.

So have I got it correct?

Regards
Ian

[Sam Wren]

According to Nuts & Bolts (to which Martin Block contributed)

"2. Pz.Div. received 12 "Grille" Ausf. H for both 9.Kompanie of Pz.Gren.Rgt 2 and 304 in early July 1943 just a few days after the beginning of Operation "Zitadelle". Already in the first month the first total loss occurred. One new "Grille" H was sent as a replacement on November 30th, 1943. The bloody defensive battles in November/December 1943 reduced the available vehicles to only 8 before the 2.Pz.Div. was sent to France for refreshment on December 15th, 1943, taking with them their remaining vehicles. Although only two "Grille" Ausf. M were sent as replacements at the end of January 1944, the unit reported a total of 12 vehicles on March 1st, 1944. It is not known where those additional 2 vehicles came from, or what Ausf. they were. At the beginning of the invasion in Normandy at least 2/3 of the still available "Grille" with the 2.Pz.Div. were Ausf. H."

[yantaylor]

Thanks Sam.

Ian

[yantaylor]

I don't know which KStN it was using but it was issued with 21 x Jagdpanzer IV L/48 in April 1944 so whatever KStN called for that would be good.

Nafziger has the 38th Pzjg equipped with one platoon of 3 x self-propelled Pak 40s and another 14 x self-propelled Pak 40s, which could be Jagdpanzer IV.
So he could have hedged his bets with that one, but still not 21 vehicles, but this is dated January 1944 and a lot can change in that period.

Ian

[yantaylor]

According to Nuts & Bolts (to which Martin Block contributed)

"2. Pz.Div. received 12 "Grille" Ausf. H for both 9.Kompanie of Pz.Gren.Rgt 2 and 304 in early July 1943 just a few days after the beginning of Operation "Zitadelle". Already in the first month the first total loss occurred. One new "Grille" H was sent as a replacement on November 30th, 1943. The bloody defensive battles in November/December 1943 reduced the available vehicles to only 8 before the 2.Pz.Div. was sent to France for refreshment on December 15th, 1943, taking with them their remaining vehicles. Although only two "Grille" Ausf. M were sent as replacements at the end of January 1944, the unit reported a total of 12 vehicles on March 1st, 1944. It is not known where those additional 2 vehicles came from, or what Ausf. they were. At the beginning of the invasion in Normandy at least 2/3 of the still available "Grille" with the 2.Pz.Div. were Ausf. H."

Hi Sam.
Nafziger also says that in February 44 that both the 2nd and 304th Pg Regts had six self-propelled infantry guns each, which is what you have.

Ian

[yantaylor]

Nafziger makes no mention of Puma armoured cars, but I am sure that some sites say they had them. He also says that the recon btl had a gun section with two 75mm leFH, which is a new weapon to me.

Ian

[Tanker Mike]

I would be cautious about using Nafziger as a primary source. For example, it is a well known fact that the 2.Panzer-Division was issued 25 234/2 heavy armored cars.

[yantaylor]

Yes Mike, we all except that Nafziger books have issues, but are certain that his books are 100% wrong? That is why I still use them as a base to work from, that way we can correct any data which is wrong.

I use this site as my primary source, but I need to use outside sources to start the ball rolling. At the moment I am searching through data on the 2. Panzer circa summer 44 and I will chewing over old data which will not go down well with other members but it is how I work because if I don’t write things down then I tend to forget what I learnt from you guys, but getting old does that to you, so I hope you will all be patient with me.

Are you all still up for discussing the 2. Pz?

Ian

[Tanker Mike]

Yes Mike, we all except that Nafziger books have issues, but are certain that his books are 100% wrong? That is why I still use them as a base to work from, that way we can correct any data which is wrong.

I use this site as my primary source, but I need to use outside sources to start the ball rolling. At the moment I am searching through data on the 2. Panzer circa summer 44 and I will chewing over old data which will not go down well with other members but it is how I work because if I don’t write things down then I tend to forget what I learnt from you guys, but getting old does that to you, so I hope you will all be patient with me.

Are you all still up for discussing the 2. Pz?

Ian

He is good starting point to use as a base for sure. As is this forum. Years ago I had an email conversation with Mr. Nafziger and he acknowledged the errors in his work at the time. Transcribing information from German to English is difficult for sure.

Mike